03-31-2014 09:52 PM
I was "T.H.I.S." close to buying the 70D. I have read WAYYY too many posts about issues with the focusing on the 70D. How is Canon handling the issue? I would love to buy this camera, but not willing to gamble with that much money.
08-07-2014 07:22 PM - edited 08-07-2014 07:41 PM
Look at those pictures :
http://s1262.photobucket.com/user/Molybdo42/media/originalTestShot_overlay_zps52452615.jpg.html
http://s1262.photobucket.com/user/Molybdo42/media/originalTestShot_overlay2_zpsa12995f2.jpg.html
I've overlaid my own focus area on your pictures.
The first one shows in transparency my focus areas overlayed over your pictures.
The second one show in transparency the sensitive AF area (in my case) overlayed on the focus point you used.
In all cases none can allow me to test the focus issue, the grass was always clearly inside the rectangle where my faulty camera can lock focus (by lock I mean I would hear a "bip").
Am I clear enough ?
08-07-2014 11:16 PM - edited 08-08-2014 01:15 AM
@Molybdo42 wrote:No, sorry, you didn't understand the purpose of the test.
The purpose is to see if the camera can lock focus on the portions I've highligted in red in the following picture :
None of your "real world" test answer my question. That is why I'm asking you to do the test in front of a computer screen and on a tripod. I'm making this to isolate the issue, the protocol is made in order to avoid the camera locking focus behind ornemental grass.
On my camera the focus points N°3 and 14 wouldn't lock focus.
Okay, I think I see what you're talking about. However, I hate to say this, but nothing is wrong with your camera. The focus system from the 7D and the 70D are shown here. Read the following for a bit more information and let me know if you need further clarification.
thus you can see where if you're going to shoot a person and want to focus on their eyes, in landscape mode it's important to select teh correct focus point AND to understand how they work. You may be a bit put off by the above, but rotate through the zones of focus points and you'll see that they favor top, bottom, left, right and center.
08-08-2014 04:38 AM - edited 08-08-2014 05:35 AM
Yes I've seen that picture. Like I said in another post, I'm already aware that the focus sensitive strips extend quite a bit in certain direction and that it doesn't cover certain areas (http://forums.usa.canon.com/t5/EOS/EOS-70D-focus-issue-question/m-p/97566#U97566)
This guy did a similar measurement as me on his 7D :
http://blogs.stonesteps.ca/showpost.aspx?pid=54
He has better results than mine and the sensitive strip covers entirely the focus points I pointed to in my last posts. If
you look at any of his points, his camera AF covers a wider area and is more centered than mine.
To map the sensitive area, the measurement protocol I proposed (the long one, not the quick test) has been made to be the most precise and reproductible as possible (this is why it's long and requires a computer screen). Ididn't put rectangles randomly where I feel would be great, what you see is where my camera can focus ! You unfortunately have to admit that at least my 70D is defective with focus issues.
Also, since the 70D doesn't have the same AF modes as the 7D (for example no spot focus) I wanted to know how the AF would behave in a working 70D. Maybe Canon disabled some pixels in the AF sensor to make the coverage smaller. Nevertheless, the focus coverage in my 70D is decentered (just look at the center point !) and doesn't cover Liveview's marks, so in my opinion my 70D AF sensor is misaligned.
Seing the insidious nature of the AF issue, I'm counting on using the AF coverage to spot reliably the issue, even without a fast lens. This is what I'm desperately trying to explain...
I did the same kind of measurements on my 60D and all my 9 focus points where covering the marks in LiveView. I don't have the picture on this hard drive so I'll try to remake the measurement to post the result here.
08-08-2014 07:36 AM
@Molybdo42 wrote:Yes I've seen that picture. Like I said in another post, I'm already aware that the focus sensitive strips extend quite a bit in certain direction and that it doesn't cover certain areas (http://forums.usa.canon.com/t5/EOS/EOS-70D-focus-issue-question/m-p/97566#U97566)
This guy did a similar measurement as me on his 7D :
http://blogs.stonesteps.ca/showpost.aspx?pid=54
He has better results than mine and the sensitive strip covers entirely the focus points I pointed to in my last posts. If
you look at any of his points, his camera AF covers a wider area and is more centered than mine.
To map the sensitive area, the measurement protocol I proposed (the long one, not the quick test) has been made to be the most precise and reproductible as possible (this is why it's long and requires a computer screen). Ididn't put rectangles randomly where I feel would be great, what you see is where my camera can focus ! You unfortunately have to admit that at least my 70D is defective with focus issues.
Also, since the 70D doesn't have the same AF modes as the 7D (for example no spot focus) I wanted to know how the AF would behave in a working 70D. Maybe Canon disabled some pixels in the AF sensor to make the coverage smaller. Nevertheless, the focus coverage in my 70D is decentered (just look at the center point !) and doesn't cover Liveview's marks, so in my opinion my 70D AF sensor is misaligned.
Seing the insidious nature of the AF issue, I'm counting on using the AF coverage to spot reliably the issue, even without a fast lens. This is what I'm desperately trying to explain...
I did the same kind of measurements on my 60D and all my 9 focus points where covering the marks in LiveView. I don't have the picture on this hard drive so I'll try to remake the measurement to post the result here.
Have you shared your findings and graphics with Canon service? That's what I would do. Articulate the findings with as few words and as simply as you can and include that with the Camera. Best I can do/say.
One of the posters here early on tried shooting a bird at f/2.8 and missed, etc....well without seeing their photos it's kind of hard to say what caused it. Who shoots birds at f/2.8 anyway? If lighting is that low to warrant a wide open lens, best practice is to use a flash anyway. Photography is about light now shadows or no light, thus I can't imagine his shot would have been stellar.
In the end, knowing the gear and focus systems and how they function is key. Sounds like you're getting a good handle on this. I think the advantage to a 70D with it's articulated screen and better focusing is the the ability to use it and zoom in too.
The above doesn't necessarily address your issue, but rather are just points I'm making. Good luck to you.
08-08-2014 08:51 AM - edited 08-08-2014 09:10 AM
@Molybdo42 wrote:
Look at the pictures in these post, and tell me if that's how a camera's AF is supposed to work :
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16974971&postcount=832
^^ The photographer had poor technique. Seriously, to focus on the side of a subjects face like that is not how the photographer is supposed to work. The AF Worked fine. Not flaming the guy, but if he understood how the AF System functions, such a mis-fire would not have bene unexpected. Innocent issue, but nonetheless not the camaras issue. He should have placed that focus point squarely on the persons face. Also, anytime the exact focus point you are targeting is small and perhaps the focus point extends outside the target, one has to be aware of the size of the focus points reach. Again, you're studies are giving you a crash course on that matter.
Even just today, playing around as I watered flowers, I was shooting with the intent to hit the center of a flower but the center was so small it fit completely inside the focus point. One would think, great! it beeped, I nailed the shot.....nope, it focused on the white petals behind my intended target because of their greater contrast and the alignment of them with the edges of the focus square. I didn't have enough DOF so at 100% it was slightly OOF. Not a big deal as it was a playing around shot that the OOF was minor and wouldn't be seen at even 8x10 size. However, we are all pixel peepers anymore it seems, even me.
I knew that was likely going to be the case as I've been there done that, so I simply flipped to Live View, zoomed to 5x insuring that not only was the focusing system targeting the center precisely but it allowed for me to visually see it do so better than just through the OVF. The latter being a nice benefit to the 70D's focus system.
08-08-2014 09:27 AM
Thanks for the answer ! It's exactly what I've done on first and second repair, in both I put a 4 pages letter explaining the issue. Now the conversation we had shows that I wasn't clear enough, if I need a third repair I'll try to modify my text. What posts were you occupying at Kodak and Panasonic ? This might help me in writting the letter differently.
Regarding the test shots of some poster showing focus issues, this is exactly the kind of situation I want to avoid with my test.
A lot of things can give focus issues. Most of the times the roadwarriors will always start to blame the user, then the lens/body combination who needs MFA, and they never blame the camera body because they never experienced something similar.
The guys who took the pictures already owned another camera body, their pictures might not be the best examples as they can lead to a lot of debate. But for his defence, most (if not all ?) photographers don't know the kind of software procedure the AF goes through when selecting what It should focus on. Does it focus on the nearest subject, or on the most contrasted, or on the one located in the center of the mark ? Those are questions I still need to ask myself. Maybe that the picture you pointed at would have focussed properly,maybe the AF system focuses on the closest widest subject (the face is closer and covers more than 4/5 the sensitive area, so I would expect to lock focus on that). I think that automatic AF point selection does that.
But, regardless what they were told, the affected users still "instinctivly" felt that something was wrong with their camera. Kind of like I did when I got the 70D. In my first pictures I couldn't understand why the camera can't focus. Also up until the 70D, I never payed too much attention to how AF works. In a sense, this 70D issue made me a better photographer as I now know what "crosstype" means (to show you how far I was)...
You unfortunately really need to experience that issue once to clearly understand what we are going through.
08-08-2014 09:36 AM - edited 08-08-2014 09:50 AM
I'll add another piece of information, unlike older Konica Minolta 7D (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16947213&postcount=719), Canon doesn't have three adjustment screws to level the AF sensor ! When assembling their AF sensor, they simply slap it on the mirror box and screw tight. For the 70D, the only possible adjustment is to use a screw to move the sensor to the left or right.
So in other words,Canon is counting on the manufacturing precision of their mirror box and their AF sensor to do most of the job ! But this method seems to work... most of the times.
I once had to adjust the position of a split prism focus screen (with several layers of thin tape), I can say that 50µm does make a huge difference, maybe the AF sensor has similar tolerance.
08-08-2014 09:54 AM
@Molybdo42 wrote:Thanks for the answer ! It's exactly what I've done on first and second repair, in both I put a 4 pages letter explaining the issue. Now the conversation we had shows that I wasn't clear enough, if I need a third repair I'll try to modify my text. What posts were you occupying at Kodak and Panasonic ? This might help me in writting the letter differently.
Sales Director, but the position offered me complete access to engineering and development, tech support, etc. Even in big companies, the various lines of business and groups within are pretty tightly integrated.
But for his defence, most (if not all ?) photographers don't know the kind of software procedure the AF goes through when selecting what It should focus on. Does it focus on the nearest subject, or on the most contrasted, or on the one located in the center of the mark ? Those are questions I still need to ask myself. Maybe that the picture you pointed at would have focussed properly,maybe the AF system focuses on the closest widest subject (the face is closer and covers more than 4/5 the sensitive area, so I would expect to lock focus on that). I think that automatic AF point selection does that.
^^ Fair questions, but still the responsibility of the user to understand before they should go blaming the hardware. Again, not flaming the guy, but the truth is he's blaming the system when he clearly lacks the understanding as to what happened and what role the user/he played in the outcome. I can put the site of my AR15 on a target, but if I've not adjusted the site for 300 yards vs 100 yards or if I don't even understand the concept of aiming, then the drop of said bullet over distance is going to cause a miss even on a zero wind day. So there too 4/5 in terms of closeness won't matter. That only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades as they say. Hopefully that guy doesn't pick up a gun and expect to hit targets just because the scope or site is on-target.
But, regardless what they were told, the affected users still "instinctivly" felt that something was wrong with their camera. Kind of like I did when I got the 70D. In my first pictures I couldn't understand why the camera can't focus. Also up until the 70D, I never payed too much attention to how AF works. In a sense, this 70D issue made me a better photographer as I now know what "crosstype" means (to show you how far I was)...
You unfortunately really need to experience that issue once to clearly understand what we are going through.
I'm not sure what you mean by "instinctively"? IMO it's a matter of expectations not being met. Users bought this camera and thought that it would automatically make them a better shot. This same exact issue has come up on just about every Canon DSLR Sold to date and 9/10 times the complaints are from users who "upgraded" to the new system and didn't have said experience with them prior. Not sure who set their expectations or really, the understanding of the system, but that's where the fault lies. Another gun anaolgy as I shoot both, putting a scope on rifle isn't going to marksman make.
Believe me, I've been there done that with cameras in my days shooting them. I've had plenty of Canon SLR's. D30, 10D, 20D, 40D, 50D, 70D, 1DMKII and a 5DMKIII. Only the 20D has bit the dust. The rest work and many are being used by my family members I've given them to.
08-08-2014 09:59 AM
@Molybdo42 wrote:I'll add another piece of information, unlike older Konica Minolta 7D (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16947213&postcount=719), Canon doesn't have three adjustment screws to level the AF sensor ! When assembling their AF sensor, they simply slap it on the mirror box and screw tight. For the 70D, the only possible adjustment is to use a screw to move the sensor to the left or right.
So in other words,Canon is counting on the manufacturing precision of their mirror box and their AF sensor to do most of the job ! But this method seems to work... most of the times.
I once had to adjust the position of a split prism focus screen (with several layers of thin tape), I can say that 50µm does make a huge difference, maybe the AF sensor has similar tolerance.
The reality is cameras from all makes are made differently. However, all have a tollerance range when being assembled. Canon is among the best as is Nikon. Not knocking Konica, but there aren't many of their cameras shooting pro sports events. If they had a lock on manufacturing tollerances and quality and accuracy, you bet that would be different. Just saying....
In terms of adjustments, just look at when Canon introduced AFMA. More issues came up now that every shooter thought they themselves could "fine tune" a camera / lens combo. That's an entirely different story. In the end, there are so many variables that impact the optics through the OVF that I wonder if it's even worth introducing such a feature. However, the sale of cameras will likely drive that and today, not having AFMA wouldn't help sales. And having the ability to tweak them won't change the need for users to fully understand the AF System in general.
08-08-2014 10:19 AM
@pdqgp wrote:^^ Fair questions, but still the responsibility of the user to understand before they should go blaming the hardware. Again, not flaming the guy, but the truth is he's blaming the system when he clearly lacks the understanding as to what happened and what role the user/he played in the outcome. I can put the site of my AR15 on a target, but if I've not adjusted the site for 300 yards vs 100 yards or if I don't even understand the concept of aiming, then the drop of said bullet over distance is going to cause a miss even on a zero wind day. So there too 4/5 in terms of closeness won't matter. That only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades as they say. Hopefully that guy doesn't pick up a gun and expect to hit targets just because the scope or site is on-target.
The guy had a full understanding of how the system works. See the smiley face at the end of the sentence. He knew exactly why the shot missed.The previous post were about random misses because peolpe were focusing on things the camera had ittle chance of hitting.The very next post (which you wont see when displaying only single post) starts with.[QUOTE=Scoobert;16975031]I realize stuff like the last shot happens on any camera and the box is not the end of the focus point.
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