07-19-2014 12:22 PM
07-19-2014 01:18 PM - edited 07-20-2014 02:46 PM
@ScottyP wrote:you see the True Believers savaging anyone who thinks there could be a defect in Canon equipment/firmware/ etc..
There's been no "savaging" here - although the infantile reaction to the reasonable expectation that the "victims" demonstrably rule themselves out as "The Problem" is predicatble enough.
It's not defensive to expect this, and utterly unfair to characterise it as such: it's a fundamental part of trouble-shooting, and all your post does, Scotty, is to act as provocation to both of these supposed sides: there are no sides here - everyone posting wants to get to the bottom of this. Some of us just want to see the job done properly.
And that's because it's clear beyond any doubt that there's no "focus issues with the 70D", as the title of the thread asserts.
There will certainly be some faulty individual bodies, but that's not the same thing by any stretch of the imagination: and anyone who tries to stretch the occcasional faulty camera into proof of inherent failure in design/manufacture is - well, to be kind - not very bright, and they're also ignoring history - I've seen exactly the same nonsense from the 30D onwards.
Some of us have been doing this long enough to know the difference - which fact is apparently enough in itself to provoke condemnation from some contributors, like @ghstinshll - but it's a foolish thing indeed to ignore that experience in favour of cheap shots which help nobody and which move the discussion backwards, especially given threads like this one:
which makes my case for me better than I ever could myself. User error, pure and simple - as most of these "problems" will surely be.
Like I say: you ignore experience at your peril. None of this is new.
There's nothing fanboyish in taking this view (God knows, there are plently of things to berate Canon for - I'm still waiting for a camera with same Auto ISO capabilities that I had in my Nikon D70 way back in 2005) but - once more for the avoidance of any doubt - some faulty cameras (and a lot of poorly-used ones) does not equal across-the-board "focus issues with the 70D".
Yes and proof beyond ANY DOUBT that no 1D mkiii had any focus issues. Because there was one good one out there.
THEY ALL MUST BE GOOD.
Never mind the people hollering, never mind the first recall there was NO FOCUS ISSUE. Because there was a good unit out there.
Never mind that second recall and the firmware updates. That was put in place so that those who just thought they had bad camera would feel better. It actually fixed nothing. Because after all some canon fanboy someplace had a good unit, so they are all had to be good.
You have zero proof that there isn't a focus problem wiht many 70D's unless your proof is that because you keep hollering there isnt one, is enough proof.
Seriously start your own "My 70D is good thread, so EVERYBODY has a good 70D thread". That way you can repeat it as much as you want and you can invite people to join you. Letting the people here get a break from your idiotic rants.
Plus I have not seen one person claim these are an across the board problem with every 70D. Every post I have seen is that it is something that affects some units. Stop making things up to validate your BS points.
07-19-2014 04:04 PM - edited 07-19-2014 04:07 PM
I'm still waiting for you to follow the testing procedure I gave you... (message 25).
You have the chance to posess a "working" camera. Your data will allow users with an issue to see if the test I proposed is revelant or not, because that's "a fundamental part of trouble-shooting".
Unfortunately for you, in order to troubleshot that issue, having experience in photography isn't the most usefull knowledge to have ! You just use the typical argument from authority to prove your point !
What's important is to know how a focus system works. For example, did you know that there are two sets of lenses in an AF sensor ? Do you know what those lenses do ? What would happen if one of those lenses isn't well aligned ? Or if the sensor isn't in the right place ? That's the sort of things I really want to know, and if there are any tests to isolate that perticuliar issue.
Because in my mind showing blurry picture is a nice quick test, but that isn't quantitative data at all, blur is very subjective. That way users with issues end up being told by "experienced users" that they're pixel peeping, and that they are beginners. Those same "experienced users" never encountered that sort of issue and simply don't know what they are talking about. Because, you have to experience it to really know what we are talking about. I never got so interested in focus systems until I got TWO completely new faulty 70D in a row with very different serial numbers.
That issue is difficult to troubleshot, in my case, testing the camera with the usual black and white focus target (often used for micro focus adjust) simply doesn't work ! We're not in the situation where the subject is in focus, and where the camera consistently front focus or back focus a tiny bit. I think we're in the case where the AF sensor and/or the miror box assembly has a manufacturing and/or adjustment precision issue.
But up until now, you only spent your time in complete denial, conforting yourself in your own opinion that a huge part of the reported issues come from the users. Now prove that you really want to get to the bottom of it and do some measurements !
08-03-2014 09:07 AM
I have never witten to any forum before but I felt obligated to state my experience after reading some of the previous messages.
I am a professional engineer with 25 years in photography. I have had many cameras of all types including some very expensive telescopes. I had a 60D body with various lenses that worked fne and I bought th 70D months ago since it was the "game changer" when it came to focusing. I have taken thousands of shots with this camera using the 18-55 kit lens, the Sigma 17-50 2.8, the Tamron 70-300 5.6 and the Canon 50 1.8 II. Of course I have used a tripod, checked numerous f stops and t value combinations as well as different lighting conditions and target distances. Using the viewfinder and the center point focus, the results are dismal in all sorts of conditions. In many cases, it is a joke. The LCD screen works great 99% of the time. Some of you guys are trying to make this more complicated than it really is and point to user error. Baloney. You use the center point through the viewfinder to focus, make sure you have a reasonable f-stop and Tv, and ISO, you get the green light and short beep and take a picture. In most cases, it is completely off in focus. The other options for focus in the viewfiner work somewhat better but it is a crapshoot....maybe 50% in focus. Also, these options do not allow a precise point focus. Using a Nikon 7100 in exactly the same conditions, and comaparable lenses gets the focus right almost all the time.
By the way, if everyone that has this problem is making some type of error in the focusing with the viewfinder, then why do the same shots with exactly the same parameters come out fine every time using the LCD? Without knowing anything of this widespread issue with the 70D, I sent mine into Canon for the warranty repair for the viewfinder focusing with the 18-55 kit lens. My response was quote "Your product has been examined and it was found that the product perfomed according to specifications. the auto focus to operate improperly cause by lens was misadjusted, lens was adjusted"
The kit lens now does focus better after the repair, and the accpetance rate is up to 65-70%. Still not good enough. My Sigma and Tamron lenses are now worse. The Tamron won't focus now even with the LCD. Also, if the lens was misaligned, then why did it focus fine using the LCD?
I also tried another 70D at Mike's Cmera in Denver and it had the same problem. Conclusion: This camera's selling point is its focus capability. The center point through the viewfinder is essential to work properly for a camera of this price and it does not work. It is extremely disspointing.
08-03-2014 12:23 PM
Here are some links with everything I learned up until now :
My camera is currently in repair for the second time. After discussing with the technician who did the first repair, and after showing him that his repairs didn't solve the problem I reported, I got the possibility to send it to Canon for further checks. No news yet.
Seing how they fixed one of the faulty camera (they replaced almost everything), I'm begining to think that there is some issue with the manufacturing of the mirror box. In my opinion, the AF sensor is either too close or too far from it's ideal position as well as being slightly tilted (that's why I map the AF sensitive areas). Now that issue doesn't affect all cameras and on german forums they listed the SN numbers and found no correlation (http://www.dslr-forum.de/showthread.php?t=1364683). For Canon's defence I can say that the sensor would at least need to be positionned with less than 50 µm precision, so trouble can happen when during manufacturing they only screw on the AF sensor to the mirror box and do only basic right/left shift adjustments. Less than 50µm precision on a molded plastic part... don't know if that possible.
We still need a definitive testing method to isolate the issue and justify the repair. Because taking blurry pictures doesn't work all the time to spot the issue (see one of my links). I would greatly appreciate if you could map the AF sensor coverage. This method gave me similar measurements with two of my fast lenses (Canon 40mm 2.8 pancake, and Sigma 18-35 1.8).
08-04-2014 07:23 PM
Great issue for me to chime in on. I purchased a 70d as a backup to my 5d Mk1 a couple of months ago. The 5d has been a work horse, and I am using a 10d as a backup. Both great cameras and the service from canon was awsome. But now the honeymoon is over with the 70d. When I got it I noticed the images were soft and noisey. I contacted canon support who looked at the images and made some suggestions. The next set of photos were just as bad. Noisey, soft and muted color. I listened to canon and sent it in for service. They bench tested it and blamed me, my lenses, my estranged wife, anything but the camera. Then they wanted to check my lenses. Remember I still use the 5d and needed them for my work, so I drove a couple of hours to a conon dealer and kidnapped a salesman and a 70d right out of the box. Under conditions like very low light, busy backgrounds, high iso, the images still were crisp and the color was as good as can be expected under the conditions. Still, canon says there is nothing wrong and will not replace it or fix it. I have shot over 1000 frames through this camera with not a single frame being sharp and in focus. By accident something should have been in focus if it were operator error. The lenses that thay want to test work great on my other cameras and the new 70d at the dealer. I don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure this out. Problem is I listened to canon and now it is beyond the window to return it to the dealer. So now what?
The issues may be with only a small percentage of 70ds but a bunch have been sold so they add up. Canon has took a page from the GM playbook and simply deny any issues. I do love my other cameras (I have canons going back to my A1 and AE1) so I do would not tell anyone not to buy canon but if you do and you even think it may have issues, take it back to the dealer and get a refund. We may need to start contacting our states AG at some point. Meanwhile, I will have to learn to operate a Nikon.
08-04-2014 09:58 PM
Actually I haven't tried live view. Most of my work is outdoors and I find live view a little difficult in bright light. I have only tested it under working conditions. It may be fine for studio work, I'll check it out when I get a chance.
08-05-2014 02:02 AM
08-05-2014 12:58 PM
You either did not read or do not comprehend what I said. Please read it again, I went to extremes to say that is was obviously not every 70d, so what point did you make?