When will canon fix the focus issues with the 70D?

[Photogirl55]

I was "T.H.I.S." close to buying the 70D.  I have read WAYYY too many posts about issues with the focusing on the 70D.  How is Canon handling the issue?  I would love to buy this camera, but not willing to gamble with that much money.

[70Downer]

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@KeithR wrote:

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@ScottyP wrote:

 you see the True Believers savaging anyone who thinks there could be a defect in Canon equipment/firmware/ etc.. 

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There's been no "savaging" here - although the infantile reaction to the reasonable expectation that the "victims" demonstrably rule themselves out as "The Problem" is predicatble enough.

It's not defensive to expect this, and utterly unfair to characterise it as such: it's a fundamental part of trouble-shooting, and all your post does, Scotty, is to act as provocation to both of these supposed sides: there are no sides here - everyone posting wants to get to the bottom of this. Some of us just want to see the job done properly.

And that's because it's clear beyond any doubt that there's no "focus issues with the 70D", as the title of the thread asserts.

There will certainly be some faulty individual bodies, but that's not the same thing by any stretch of the imagination: and anyone who tries to stretch the occcasional faulty camera into proof of inherent failure in design/manufacture is - well, to be kind - not very bright, and they're also ignoring history - I've seen exactly the same nonsense from the 30D onwards.

Some of us have been doing this long enough to know the difference - which fact is apparently enough in itself to provoke condemnation from some contributors, like @ghstinshll - but it's a foolish thing indeed to ignore that experience in favour of cheap shots which help nobody and which move the discussion backwards, especially given threads like this one: 

http://forums.usa.canon.com/t5/EOS/70D-Image-Quality-Worse-than-T3i/td-p/104094 

which makes my case for me better than I ever could myself. User error, pure and simple - as most of these "problems" will surely be. 

Like I say: you ignore experience at your peril. None of this is new.

There's nothing fanboyish in taking this view (God knows, there are plently of things to berate Canon for - I'm still waiting for a camera with same Auto ISO capabilities that I had in my Nikon D70 way back in 2005) but - once more for the avoidance of any doubt - some faulty cameras (and a lot of poorly-used ones) does not equal across-the-board "focus issues with the 70D".

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Yes and  proof beyond ANY DOUBT that no 1D mkiii had any focus issues. Because there was one good one out there.

THEY ALL MUST BE GOOD.

Never mind the people hollering, never mind the first recall there was NO FOCUS ISSUE. Because there was a good unit out there.

Never mind that second recall and the firmware updates. That was put in place so that those who just thought they had bad camera would feel better. It actually fixed nothing. Because after all some canon fanboy someplace had a good unit, so they are all  had to be good.

You have zero proof that there isn't a focus problem wiht many 70D's unless your proof is that because you keep hollering there isnt one, is enough proof.

Seriously start your own "My 70D is good thread, so EVERYBODY has a good 70D thread". That way you can repeat it as much as you want and you can invite people to join you. Letting the people here get a break from your idiotic rants.

Plus I have not seen one person claim these are an across the board problem with every 70D. Every post I have seen is that it is something that affects some units. Stop making things up to validate your BS points.

[Molybdo42]

@ KeithR

I'm still waiting for you to follow the testing procedure I gave you... (message 25).

You have the chance to posess a "working" camera. Your data will allow users with an issue to see if the test I proposed is revelant or not, because that's "a fundamental part of trouble-shooting".

Unfortunately for you, in order to troubleshot that issue, having experience in photography isn't the most usefull knowledge to have ! You just use the typical argument from authority to prove your point !

What's important is to know how a focus system works. For example, did you know that there are two sets of lenses in an AF sensor ? Do you know what those lenses do ? What would happen if one of those lenses isn't well aligned ? Or if the sensor isn't in the right place ? That's the sort of things I really want to know, and if there are any tests to isolate that perticuliar issue.

Because in my mind showing blurry picture is a nice quick test, but that isn't quantitative data at all, blur is very subjective. That way users with issues end up being told by "experienced users"  that they're pixel peeping, and that they are beginners. Those same "experienced users" never encountered that sort of issue and simply don't know what they are talking about. Because, you have to experience it to really know what we are talking about. I never got so interested in focus systems until I got TWO completely new faulty 70D in a row with very different serial numbers.

That issue is difficult to troubleshot, in my case, testing the camera with the usual black and white focus target (often used for micro focus adjust) simply doesn't work ! We're not in the situation where the subject is in focus, and where the camera consistently front focus or back focus a tiny bit. I think we're in the case where the AF sensor and/or the miror box assembly has a manufacturing and/or adjustment precision issue.

But up until now, you only spent your time in complete denial, conforting yourself in your own opinion that a huge part of the reported issues come from the users. Now prove that you really want to get to the bottom of it and do some measurements !

[glewicks]

I have never witten to any forum before but I felt obligated to state my experience after reading some of the previous messages.

I am a professional engineer with 25 years in photography. I have had many cameras of all types including some very expensive telescopes. I had a 60D body with various lenses that worked fne and I bought th 70D months ago since it was the "game changer" when it came to focusing. I have taken thousands of shots with this camera using the 18-55 kit lens, the Sigma 17-50 2.8, the Tamron 70-300 5.6 and the Canon 50 1.8 II. Of course I have used a tripod, checked numerous f stops and t value combinations as well as different lighting conditions and target distances. Using the viewfinder and the center point focus, the results are dismal in all sorts of conditions. In many cases, it is a joke. The LCD screen works great 99% of the time. Some of you guys are trying to make this more complicated than it really is and point to user error. Baloney. You use the center point through the viewfinder to focus, make sure you have a reasonable f-stop and Tv, and ISO, you get the green light and short beep and take a picture. In most cases, it is completely off in focus. The other options for focus in the viewfiner work somewhat better but it is a crapshoot....maybe 50% in focus. Also, these options do not allow a precise point focus. Using a Nikon 7100 in exactly the same conditions, and comaparable lenses gets the focus right almost all the time. 

By the way, if everyone that has this problem is making some type of error in the focusing with the viewfinder, then why do the same shots with exactly the same parameters come out fine every time using the LCD? Without knowing anything of this widespread issue with the 70D, I sent mine into Canon for the warranty repair for the viewfinder focusing with the 18-55 kit lens. My response was quote "Your product has been examined and it was found that the product perfomed according to specifications. the auto focus to operate improperly cause by lens was misadjusted, lens was adjusted"

The kit lens now does focus better after the repair, and the accpetance rate is up to 65-70%. Still not good enough. My Sigma and Tamron lenses are now worse. The Tamron won't focus now even with the LCD. Also, if the lens was misaligned, then why did it focus fine using the LCD?  

I also tried another 70D at Mike's Cmera in Denver and it had the same problem.  Conclusion: This camera's selling point is its focus capability. The center point through the viewfinder is essential to work properly for a camera of this price and it does not work. It is extremely disspointing. 

[Molybdo42]

@glewicks :

Here are some links with everything I learned up until now :
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16947213&postcount=719
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17011802&postcount=890
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17068543&postcount=1128
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17049246&postcount=1097
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17055295&postcount=1105
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17046799&postcount=1088
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1380558&highlight=70d+poll

My camera is currently in repair for the second time. After discussing with the technician who did the first repair, and after showing him that his repairs didn't solve the problem I reported, I got the possibility to send it to Canon for further checks. No news yet.

Seing how they  fixed one of the faulty camera (they replaced almost everything), I'm begining to think that there is some issue with the manufacturing of the mirror box. In my opinion, the AF sensor is either too close or too far from it's ideal position as well as being slightly tilted (that's why I map the AF sensitive areas). Now that issue doesn't affect all cameras and on german forums they listed the SN numbers and found no correlation (http://www.dslr-forum.de/showthread.php?t=1364683). For Canon's defence I can say that the sensor would at least need to be positionned with less than 50 µm precision, so trouble can happen when during manufacturing they only screw on the AF sensor to the mirror box and do only basic right/left shift adjustments. Less than 50µm precision on a molded plastic part... don't know if that possible.

We still need a definitive testing method to isolate the issue and justify the repair. Because taking blurry pictures doesn't work all the time to spot the issue (see one of my links). I would greatly appreciate if you could map the AF sensor coverage. This method gave me similar measurements with two of my fast lenses (Canon 40mm 2.8 pancake, and Sigma 18-35 1.8).

[pdqgp]

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@glewicks wrote:

I have never witten to any forum before but I felt obligated to state my experience after reading some of the previous messages.

I am a professional engineer with 25 years in photography. I have had many cameras of all types including some very expensive telescopes. I had a 60D body with various lenses that worked fne and I bought th 70D months ago since it was the "game changer" when it came to focusing. I have taken thousands of shots with this camera using the 18-55 kit lens, the Sigma 17-50 2.8, the Tamron 70-300 5.6 and the Canon 50 1.8 II. Of course I have used a tripod, checked numerous f stops and t value combinations as well as different lighting conditions and target distances. Using the viewfinder and the center point focus, the results are dismal in all sorts of conditions. In many cases, it is a joke. The LCD screen works great 99% of the time. Some of you guys are trying to make this more complicated than it really is and point to user error. Baloney. You use the center point through the viewfinder to focus, make sure you have a reasonable f-stop and Tv, and ISO, you get the green light and short beep and take a picture. In most cases, it is completely off in focus. The other options for focus in the viewfiner work somewhat better but it is a crapshoot....maybe 50% in focus. Also, these options do not allow a precise point focus. Using a Nikon 7100 in exactly the same conditions, and comaparable lenses gets the focus right almost all the time. 

By the way, if everyone that has this problem is making some type of error in the focusing with the viewfinder, then why do the same shots with exactly the same parameters come out fine every time using the LCD? Without knowing anything of this widespread issue with the 70D, I sent mine into Canon for the warranty repair for the viewfinder focusing with the 18-55 kit lens. My response was quote "Your product has been examined and it was found that the product perfomed according to specifications. the auto focus to operate improperly cause by lens was misadjusted, lens was adjusted"

The kit lens now does focus better after the repair, and the accpetance rate is up to 65-70%. Still not good enough. My Sigma and Tamron lenses are now worse. The Tamron won't focus now even with the LCD. Also, if the lens was misaligned, then why did it focus fine using the LCD?  

I also tried another 70D at Mike's Cmera in Denver and it had the same problem.  Conclusion: This camera's selling point is its focus capability. The center point through the viewfinder is essential to work properly for a camera of this price and it does not work. It is extremely disspointing. 

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The LCD Live View system is a completely different focusing system that registers right off the sensor whereas the OVF accuracy is based off the alignment of the two mirrors and focus screen on the OVF. My guess is that’s off.   Thus if Canon made an adjustment to the lens only and it’s still not working, then there’s likely either user error or an OVF alignment issue.   Those are the only two things left.

You need to send them all of your lenses or send your Tamron lenses to their center for warranty review.   Again, the LiveView system doesn’t respond to MicroFocus adjustments and instead focuses right off the sensor, thus why it would still work.  

Lastly, the DPAF system is great and is more accurate in all BUT the center point position. I can link you to the article later, but Canon’s own engineer published a document covering the technical aspects as to why but in the then, the cross diagonal Horz/Vert sensor in the OVF is the most accurate of them all.   Live View however is MORE accurate for off-center focusing.

[Molybdo42]

@ pdqgp :

glewickswas speaking about the phase AF, not manual focus through the viewfinder !

The issue isn't with the focus screen not being properly shimed, but with the AF sensor located at the bottom of the camera right above the tripod screw. Something along the optical path from the lens to the chip inside the AF sensor isn't where it should be...

Can you give the link to the article explaining why DPAF is less precise in the center ?

[pdqgp]

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@Molybdo42 wrote:

@ pdqgp :

glewickswas speaking about the phase AF, not manual focus through the viewfinder !

The issue isn't with the focus screen not being properly shimed, but with the AF sensor located at the bottom of the camera right above the tripod screw. Something along the optical path from the lens to the chip inside the AF sensor isn't where it should be...

Can you give the link to the article explaining why DPAF is less precise in the center ?

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I'm not talking about manual focus, My points reflect autofocus.   Auto focus through the OVF is not the same as when done through the Live View Sensor.   In the end, I don't have a horse in this as my 70D is spot on regardless.   I only needed to do a very slight micro adjustment to my 24-70L.  It's fine now and doesn't require a trip to Canon. In my case, I know it's the lens as it's acted up on more than one of my previous SLR's

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/02/27/canon-dual-pixel-cmos-af-autofocus-secrets-of-the-ca...

[Molybdo42]

Ok, I agree with you regarding the the AF and LiveView precision (but only for LiveAF and face AF mode, Quick AF does the same type of AF as through the OVF).

But careful, you talked about the "focus screen", that thing is a depolished glass or plastic slab, located under the pentaprism. It is used for framing and manual focus through the OVF, it has no impact on the phase AF, only on the exposition measurement. You can even replace the focus screen to get split prism focus assit when using manual lenses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focusing_screen http://www.katzeyeoptics.com/item--Canon-70D-Focusing-Screen--prod_70D.html).

Anyway, the focus issue we have is that the AF through the OVF sometimes doesn't even get you in focus (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17068543&postcount=1128). It's not an issue with precision but with the camera getting quite often completely out of focus shots, mostly with fast lenses.

[pdqgp]

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@Molybdo42 wrote:

Anyway, the focus issue we have is that the AF through the OVF sometimes doesn't even get you in focus (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17068543&postcount=1128). It's not an issue with precision but with the camera getting quite often completely out of focus shots, mostly with fast lenses.

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I've not read through nor do I intend to, that mess of a thread.   My thoughts are this:  I've seen measurbaters go through this same issue on just about every model I've ever owned.   That thread is no different regarding all the experts trying to tweak things with MFA's.   From there it spirals and people get even more confused.

In the end, if this was a huge issue, it would be all over all the forums and it's not.  My 70D is spot on and couldn't be better, so while I feel for those that seem to struggle, I have no dog in that fight.   I have one lens that I've applied a minor MFA on but in the end, MFA is just a band-aid until you can send the camera and lens to Canon.

Good luck to you.

[Molybdo42]

Measurbaters... Unfortunately for us, consumers have to prove to Canon that our cameras are faulty to get it fixed ! If it was a perfect world we wouldn't have to go through all this. I don't want to end up with a 950€ paperweight and you would do the same in my situation.

You have a working camera, good for you ! In my case I went through two different bodies with focus issues, I'm now sending my camera for repair for the second time. In total my camera has been immobilized for almost 4 weeks and it still isn't fixed (i've yet to hear from the second repair). Also, in my case MFA didn't solve anything.

Huge issue or not, we will never know how spread the issue is. If the issue comes from a batch of defective mirror boxes, by now Canon certainly fixed whatever they were doing wrong in the affected cameras. Because, it's not the first time they manufacture cameras and it doesn't seem like an unknown issue ! So at one point in time there will certainly be more almost no similar focus issues.

At least, I can say that on your side you're certainly trying to confuse people by not even reading the rest of the posts. If you want something to read here you go this is everything I learned up until now :
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16947213&postcount=719
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17011802&postcount=890
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17068543&postcount=1128
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17049246&postcount=1097
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17055295&postcount=1105
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17046799&postcount=1088
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1380558&highlight=70d+poll

We still need a definitive testing method to isolate the issue and to justify the repair. Because taking blurry pictures doesn't work all the time to spot the issue (see one of my links). I would greatly appreciate if you could use your working camera to map the AF sensor coverage. This method gave me similar measurements with two of my fast lenses (Canon 40mm 2.8 pancake, and Sigma 18-35 1.8) and might also work with slow lenses. But since you callled us measurbators I'm sure you wont do anything !