Problem with 400mm L 5.6 clarity

[pahranagatman]

On image tests my 400mm L 5.6 is performing significantly less sharp than my new 100-400mm lense. The only think I can think of that would have damaged the 400 was condensaton in the body from temperature changes. Shots are all tribod and cable triggered. No filters on either lens. This is of course cropped way in. Any ideas? The 400 is about 9 months old. Can it be cleaned internally?

[nerys]

Me?

[nerys]

I will post answers to questions and more details in new thread later but for now what do you mean my exit date is missing I upload raw to imgur does imgur remove EXIF data?

[ebiggs1]

"2. We don't know you or your skill level or how careful your techniques. If your images had the EXIF data attached, it would help because we could look at that and might see something causing the problems. Very often camera or lens "flaws" come down to somthing the photographer is doing. If you "save for the web" when you make your images, that will strip off EXIF data and is usually the reason it's missing. Instead, simply "save" the image. Some image hosting sites or the softwares used to upload to them also might strip off EXIF (but they also might offer a means of preventing this). ..."

"3. Really critical focus tests should be done on a tripod, with a good target set perfectly parallel to the camera sensor plane. The target can be as simple as a weathered fence, brick wall or newspaper page taped to a wall."

Do react to what Alan Myers suggested.  This will help eliminate things and narrow down the problem.

"4. HAVE YOU TRIED MFA? With 5DII camera you can dial in some Micro Focus Adjustment to calibrate fine tune focus accuracy of this particular lens on your particular camera. To do so, the target should be about 25X to 50X the focal length being tested. So 100mm x 25 / 25 (to convert to inches) gives about 100 inches or roughly 8 feet minimum (but at least the lens' minimum focus distance away). If testing 400mm focal length, the minimum distance for testing needs to be about 32 feet."

This one I advise against doing at this juncture.  Without knowing you better, you could make everything a lot worse.  It might be good, however, to make sure it is set to zero, no adjustment.  At that thought maybe you should reset the camera to all factory defaults.

Do the tripod test from above.

[amfoto1]

By the way, I like the brief reviews and more detailed discussion of lenses on Lensrentals.com website.

One reason I value their opinions is that they see many copies of any particular lens... have multiple copies, sometimes dozens, of any given model in stock.... and have the opportunity to compare them closely with many other similar lenses from other manufacturers. Also, their lenses likely don't have an easy life... spend a lot of time bouncing around in the back of a UPS truck, and as rentals likely don't get the same care by users, as they would give their own lenses. Lensrentals also test their lenses after each is returned, tear them down to see what makes them tick, and regularly have them serviced. All this adds up to pretty good info about a lens.

Roger at Lensrentals.com sounds like a big fan of the original 100-400mm. Up front he admits it's not as sharp a lens as some primes.... it's a compromise. But he calls it a "very good compromise" that often ends up in his bag instead of several "better" primes for all the conveniences the zoom offers... a single lens covering a variety of useful focsl lengths.  

He also likes the push/pull zoom. Some people love, others don't... I'm afraid I'm in the latter category, but to be fair that's a bias from similar design zooms in the past, not the 100-400L specificially. There is no doubt that the push/pull zoom is fast and with quickly moving subjects can make the difference between getting the shot or not. It's been a popular lens for airshows and birds in flight, in particular.

Roger notes that he 100-400L isn't its sharpest wide open... recommends using it one stop (or more) down from wide open, when image quality is critical... so instead of f4.5 at the 100mm setting, use f7.1... and instead of f5.6 at the 400mm focal length, set f8 or slightly smaller. (Again, for best IQ avoid f22, f32.)

What Roger is actually doing is managing his expectations and working within the limitations fo the lens, to get the very best he can out of it. This is similar to what I mentioned earlier, about not evaluating image sharpness and focus at 100%, since that's equivalent to ridiculously large prints. Back off to 25 or 33%... that's more realistic and closer to the largest size most of us will ever print an image. Your images look pretty good at more reasonable sizes.

If you test the lens, Micro Focus Adjust it yourself, or end up sending it off to have it calibrated, and are certain you've fully figured out and are using the best techniques with it to maximize image quality... But still aren't satisfied... Well maybe you should consider switching to another lens or two two or three or four. 

For example, you might expect more from primes (for one thing, they can be more precisely Micro Adjusted on a 5DII)... If you don't mind carrying around and swapping out between 100/2.0,  200/2.8L, 300/4L and 400/5.6L, there's little doubt that... used right... those lenses may give you the results you're after.

Even better, EF 100/2.8 macro (tho a bit slower focusing), 200/2L II, 300/2.8L II and 400/4 DO II or 400/2.8L II would give you some of the very best image quality available from any lens made by anyone, ever.  Of course, you might need to hire a Sherpa to help carry them around. And you'll have the equivalent of the cost of a small car invested in them.

Or maybe you should look at upgrading to the new 100-400L Mark II. It's sharper, especially at notable wide open and in the corners of images. Likely a lot of this is thanks to the addition of fluorite to the optical formula (which you'll also find in some other top performing Canon teles... such as the EF 70-200/2.8 II, 70-200/4 IS, and most of the "super tele" primes).  It's also got even better IS and slightly faster focus. However it's now a two ring design, rather than push/pull (either a good thing ro a bad thing, depending upon how you feel about push/pull zooms). And it's a little bigger. And it's more expensive.

Or, rein in your expectations... Stop "pixel peeping" unnecessarily and evaluate your images in sizes more like you'll actually be using them. When I look at your photos as they might print 13x19 or even 16x24... They look pretty good to me! (P.S. Try enlarging that point-n-shoot's files that you think so highly of to 60" wide and see how they compare!)

***********

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7D(x2), 50D(x3), some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & EXPOSUREMANAGER 

[nerys]

I was viewing at 100% on a 55" 4k panel

The oisser has horrid color and nasty compression artifacts but is sharper. Ie i dont think the oisser is better i think something is wrong or mis configured on my end with the 100-400

I was assuming an L lens would give superb compare dto the junk i have. When i stop down. It does. Incredibly sharp in my opinion. I dont compare to 300 or 400 primes because i dont have those. I compare to my crappy 75-300 and my old 100-300L.

I see someone made a new thread i will jump their. I apologize for hijacking this thread i am on my mobile and did a search for 100-400 focus issues and this thread cane up. My bad 🙂

[nerys]

I tried all 41 mfa positions. None help and seem only to make it worse or no change. I reset it back to zero.

Exif should be on. Does imgur strip it? The images are untouched uploaded direct from the memory cards.

Does the 5dmark ii let you turn off exif? Where is thisnsetting if yes? I will check imgur uploads when i get home tonight.

I always set cams to center point focus and one shot. Cant really use anything with what i shoot (500mph little missiles)

Odd you consider the B29 to be a tough or fast subject. I consider it to be a crazy easy and enjoyably snail like subject. I can take my time and pick my shots at leisure it is so slow and majestic. I guess that is just in comparison to what i typically shoot.

You can see some of what i do at naramlive.com and rocketrylive.com

Most of those are xti with cheap 75-300 or casio exf1 the bigger stuff i used the xti for its superior iq for the scooters of course i use the f1.

I do not think i am puxel peeping. You would have to tell me what that is. I am simply comparing iq to images i have been capturing for 20 years with my far inferior cams and glass.

In many of these shots i can physically see in the viewfinder that it simply is not in focus.

I will work on some 32ft test shots on a tripod.

I dont expect miracles. But i do expect this $1500 lens on a $2000 body to give better results than my $400 xti and $50 75-300 and in more than just noise and raw pixels.

When i get a shot in focus i am quite impressed. Just seems to have trouble getting in focus. Again up close seems fine. Its when you get past 20ft that seems to be the problem. Past 300ft the problem is slightly less but still present (ala the B29 which should be a lot sharper for such a clean easy target)

[nerys]

Ahh forgot to add. No filters. I dont typically like them

I just got religious using the elns cover for protection.

[RobertTheFat]

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@ebiggs1 wrote:

"2. We don't know you or your skill level or how careful your techniques. If your images had the EXIF data attached, it would help because we could look at that and might see something causing the problems. Very often camera or lens "flaws" come down to somthing the photographer is doing. If you "save for the web" when you make your images, that will strip off EXIF data and is usually the reason it's missing. Instead, simply "save" the image. Some image hosting sites or the softwares used to upload to them also might strip off EXIF (but they also might offer a means of preventing this). ..."

"3. Really critical focus tests should be done on a tripod, with a good target set perfectly parallel to the camera sensor plane. The target can be as simple as a weathered fence, brick wall or newspaper page taped to a wall."

Do react to what Alan Myers suggested.  This will help eliminate things and narrow down the problem.

"4. HAVE YOU TRIED MFA? With 5DII camera you can dial in some Micro Focus Adjustment to calibrate fine tune focus accuracy of this particular lens on your particular camera. To do so, the target should be about 25X to 50X the focal length being tested. So 100mm x 25 / 25 (to convert to inches) gives about 100 inches or roughly 8 feet minimum (but at least the lens' minimum focus distance away). If testing 400mm focal length, the minimum distance for testing needs to be about 32 feet."

This one I advise against doing at this juncture.  Without knowing you better, you could make everything a lot worse.  It might be good, however, to make sure it is set to zero, no adjustment.  At that thought maybe you should reset the camera to all factory defaults.

Do the tripod test from above.

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I disagree and side with Alan on this one. AFMA is tedious, but not at at all difficult, to set; and if you try it and it doesn't help, or it makes things worse, you can set it back to zero in less than thirty seconds. So I see no reason not to try it. Read about it in the manual first, of course.

[nerys]

Yep already did it all 41 settings no change or worse. So if it is a focus issues it is outside the mfa compensation range. Reset to zero.

[amfoto1]

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ebiggs1 wrote: 

"4. HAVE YOU TRIED MFA? ... 

This one I advise against doing at this juncture.  Without knowing you better, you could make everything a lot worse.  It might be good, however, to make sure it is set to zero, no adjustment...

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I see your point....

Maybe Micro Focus Adjusment should just be considered as a final resort after careful testing, before sending the lens off for service and calibration or repair.

Since MFA is a feature on 5DII someone wanting tto get that last little bit of focus accuracy out of a lens might want to learn to use it. Some folks find it makes the difference between ""My focus is a wee bit soft" and "WOW!"

But you are probably right... For initial testing, it would be good to just check that MFA is zeroed out. Then, if tests show some relatively modest amount of calibration is needed, learn to use MFA and see if that can correct it. If a lot of adjustment is necessary or if MFA is only able to correct it partially, the lens still may need to be sent in for service and calibration. Even after that work is done, it's possible that MFA will still be needed to fine tune it for that particular camera.

It definitely is not a good idea to just try every MFA setting and see what happens. That's just down to luck, that you'll find a setting that helps. You need to use a much careful and planned approach, and with a zoom such as the 100-400mm, I would run the exact same test at 100, 200, 300 and 400mm settings... come up with an average adjustment and set it... then rerun the tests at those focal lengths to confirm it's working consistently. (Using a software such as FoCal does more automatically.)

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nerys wrote:
...what do you mean my exit date is missing I upload raw to imgur does imgur remove EXIF data?

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EXIF data, sometimes referred to as metadata, is information stored within a digital image file, including all the settings that were used on the camera, lens & camera serial numbers, copyright info, and much more. I have never heard of "imgur" or uploading a RAW file. I mostly shoot RAW, but I process and convert to JPEG, saving them with EXIF intact, to upload online.

No, there is no way to "turn off" EXIF in 5DIII (or any other camera, for that matter). All digitals cameras record some sort of basic information, embedded in the image file. It really only takes up a little space... but with many softwares "save for the web" strips it off, probably to save that little bit of space.

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nerys wrote:
I was viewing at 100% on a 55" 4k panel...

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OMG... viewing on that large a screen at 100%, no wonder you're thinking the lenses aren't sharp. That's pretty extreme, though you can work to optimize the quality from the lens and camera. Depending upon how close you are to that screen, you are probably "pixel peeping" , which is just looking at images way too large and way too criticall.

What do you do with your images? Put them online or make prints or something else? Or do you just view them on that gigantic HD screen?

Didn't know to ask before what post-processing you are doing... Since you are shooting RAW, the images will need some work, including as a final step some sharpening. If those RAWs have not been post-processed, it's apples and oranges to compare with JPEGs from your point-n-shoot camera, which should be fully processed and probably even sharpened.

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nerys wrote:
...I always set cams to center point focus and one shot. Cant really use anything with what i shoot (500mph little missiles)

Odd you consider the B29 to be a tough or fast subject. I consider it to be a crazy easy and enjoyably snail like subject. I can take my time and pick my shots at leisure it is so slow and majestic. I guess that is just in comparison to what i typically shoot....

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Now we're getting somewhere! (If we'd been able to see the EXIF of the sample images, we might have caught this earlier.)

Center focus point... good (especially on 5DII... all the other AF points aren't nearly as good for moving subjects).

One Shot.... bad! This is very likely a big part of your problem, at least with moving subjects. One Shot is great for stationary subjects and the setting you should use shooting targets for lens tests. But it generally cannot be used for moving subjects.

The way One Shot works is that the lens focus starts and runs until the sensor in the camera detects it's in focus, then focus stops, locks and you get Focus Confirmation (green LED in the viewfinder lights up and, if you have it enabled, there's an audible "beep"). But, if subject is moving  it can quickly move out of focus...

The longer the focal length, the larger the aperture and the closer the subject, the shallower depth of field will be... and thus the worse that the focus error is likely to be, trying to use One Shot for moving subjects.

You should be using AI Servo for moving subjects. That is continuous focus mode and is designed to work with moving subjects. It will keep running and updating focus as long as you maintain half-press on the shutter release button (or keep the back button pressed, if using Back Button Focusing technique).

To track moving subjects, definitely stick with the center AF point on 5DII. The other visible AF points in this camera model are typically not up to the task. I have and use a 5DII myself... but not for action/sports shooting. It's a great camera for portraits, landscape, architecture, etc.... but for sports/action I mostly use a pair of 7Ds because they have much faster and more responsive AF that's great for moving subjects. With them I only miss focus occasionally... probably 2 to 4% of all my images... and I bet about half of those are my fault, not the camera's.

You have to work to keep the AF point right on the subject, too.

The 5DII does have a Focus Assist setting (one of the custom functions, I believe).... that might help. This only works in AI Servo/moving subject mode.  The camera actually has 6 more "hidden" AF points that aren't shown in the viewfinder. They are clustered close around the center one. In fact, when this is enabled, the circle in the center that indicates Spot Metered area becomes like one big AF point. This works best with subjects against a plain background that is unlikely to distract the AF and cause focus errors. I don't use this feature on my 5DII, perhaps largely because it's not my camera of choice for action shooting.

***********

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7D(x2), 50D(x3), some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & EXPOSUREMANAGER