When will canon fix the focus issues with the 70D?

[Photogirl55]

I was "T.H.I.S." close to buying the 70D.  I have read WAYYY too many posts about issues with the focusing on the 70D.  How is Canon handling the issue?  I would love to buy this camera, but not willing to gamble with that much money.

[pdqgp]

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@glewicks wrote:

I have never witten to any forum before but I felt obligated to state my experience after reading some of the previous messages.

I am a professional engineer with 25 years in photography. I have had many cameras of all types including some very expensive telescopes. I had a 60D body with various lenses that worked fne and I bought th 70D months ago since it was the "game changer" when it came to focusing. I have taken thousands of shots with this camera using the 18-55 kit lens, the Sigma 17-50 2.8, the Tamron 70-300 5.6 and the Canon 50 1.8 II. Of course I have used a tripod, checked numerous f stops and t value combinations as well as different lighting conditions and target distances. Using the viewfinder and the center point focus, the results are dismal in all sorts of conditions. In many cases, it is a joke. The LCD screen works great 99% of the time. Some of you guys are trying to make this more complicated than it really is and point to user error. Baloney. You use the center point through the viewfinder to focus, make sure you have a reasonable f-stop and Tv, and ISO, you get the green light and short beep and take a picture. In most cases, it is completely off in focus. The other options for focus in the viewfiner work somewhat better but it is a crapshoot....maybe 50% in focus. Also, these options do not allow a precise point focus. Using a Nikon 7100 in exactly the same conditions, and comaparable lenses gets the focus right almost all the time. 

By the way, if everyone that has this problem is making some type of error in the focusing with the viewfinder, then why do the same shots with exactly the same parameters come out fine every time using the LCD? Without knowing anything of this widespread issue with the 70D, I sent mine into Canon for the warranty repair for the viewfinder focusing with the 18-55 kit lens. My response was quote "Your product has been examined and it was found that the product perfomed according to specifications. the auto focus to operate improperly cause by lens was misadjusted, lens was adjusted"

The kit lens now does focus better after the repair, and the accpetance rate is up to 65-70%. Still not good enough. My Sigma and Tamron lenses are now worse. The Tamron won't focus now even with the LCD. Also, if the lens was misaligned, then why did it focus fine using the LCD?  

I also tried another 70D at Mike's Cmera in Denver and it had the same problem.  Conclusion: This camera's selling point is its focus capability. The center point through the viewfinder is essential to work properly for a camera of this price and it does not work. It is extremely disspointing. 

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The LCD Live View system is a completely different focusing system that registers right off the sensor whereas the OVF accuracy is based off the alignment of the two mirrors and focus screen on the OVF. My guess is that’s off.   Thus if Canon made an adjustment to the lens only and it’s still not working, then there’s likely either user error or an OVF alignment issue.   Those are the only two things left.

You need to send them all of your lenses or send your Tamron lenses to their center for warranty review.   Again, the LiveView system doesn’t respond to MicroFocus adjustments and instead focuses right off the sensor, thus why it would still work.  

Lastly, the DPAF system is great and is more accurate in all BUT the center point position. I can link you to the article later, but Canon’s own engineer published a document covering the technical aspects as to why but in the then, the cross diagonal Horz/Vert sensor in the OVF is the most accurate of them all.   Live View however is MORE accurate for off-center focusing.

[pdqgp]

Agree with Keith. There 70D is far from noisy. Full Frame will always be cleaner but the 70D is very clean and quite usable with proper RAW processing even up through 12,800. Happy to post or link to real world samples for the doubters.

[pdqgp]

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@ghstinshll wrote:

Ray, I haven't tested mine on a yard stick yet - but have you tried the viewfinder vs. live view shooting to see if it helps?

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Live view will be better in most all cases, especially in the case where the camera / lens combo either front or back focus.   Where both are working fine, the OVF dual cross focus point will be better but Live View will be better outside center point focusing.

[Molybdo42]

@ pdqgp :

glewickswas speaking about the phase AF, not manual focus through the viewfinder !

The issue isn't with the focus screen not being properly shimed, but with the AF sensor located at the bottom of the camera right above the tripod screw. Something along the optical path from the lens to the chip inside the AF sensor isn't where it should be...

Can you give the link to the article explaining why DPAF is less precise in the center ?

[pdqgp]

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@Molybdo42 wrote:

@ pdqgp :

glewickswas speaking about the phase AF, not manual focus through the viewfinder !

The issue isn't with the focus screen not being properly shimed, but with the AF sensor located at the bottom of the camera right above the tripod screw. Something along the optical path from the lens to the chip inside the AF sensor isn't where it should be...

Can you give the link to the article explaining why DPAF is less precise in the center ?

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I'm not talking about manual focus, My points reflect autofocus.   Auto focus through the OVF is not the same as when done through the Live View Sensor.   In the end, I don't have a horse in this as my 70D is spot on regardless.   I only needed to do a very slight micro adjustment to my 24-70L.  It's fine now and doesn't require a trip to Canon. In my case, I know it's the lens as it's acted up on more than one of my previous SLR's

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/02/27/canon-dual-pixel-cmos-af-autofocus-secrets-of-the-ca...

[Molybdo42]

Ok, I agree with you regarding the the AF and LiveView precision (but only for LiveAF and face AF mode, Quick AF does the same type of AF as through the OVF).

But careful, you talked about the "focus screen", that thing is a depolished glass or plastic slab, located under the pentaprism. It is used for framing and manual focus through the OVF, it has no impact on the phase AF, only on the exposition measurement. You can even replace the focus screen to get split prism focus assit when using manual lenses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focusing_screen http://www.katzeyeoptics.com/item--Canon-70D-Focusing-Screen--prod_70D.html).

Anyway, the focus issue we have is that the AF through the OVF sometimes doesn't even get you in focus (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17068543&postcount=1128). It's not an issue with precision but with the camera getting quite often completely out of focus shots, mostly with fast lenses.

[pdqgp]

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@Molybdo42 wrote:

Anyway, the focus issue we have is that the AF through the OVF sometimes doesn't even get you in focus (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17068543&postcount=1128). It's not an issue with precision but with the camera getting quite often completely out of focus shots, mostly with fast lenses.

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I've not read through nor do I intend to, that mess of a thread.   My thoughts are this:  I've seen measurbaters go through this same issue on just about every model I've ever owned.   That thread is no different regarding all the experts trying to tweak things with MFA's.   From there it spirals and people get even more confused.

In the end, if this was a huge issue, it would be all over all the forums and it's not.  My 70D is spot on and couldn't be better, so while I feel for those that seem to struggle, I have no dog in that fight.   I have one lens that I've applied a minor MFA on but in the end, MFA is just a band-aid until you can send the camera and lens to Canon.

Good luck to you.

[Molybdo42]

Measurbaters... Unfortunately for us, consumers have to prove to Canon that our cameras are faulty to get it fixed ! If it was a perfect world we wouldn't have to go through all this. I don't want to end up with a 950€ paperweight and you would do the same in my situation.

You have a working camera, good for you ! In my case I went through two different bodies with focus issues, I'm now sending my camera for repair for the second time. In total my camera has been immobilized for almost 4 weeks and it still isn't fixed (i've yet to hear from the second repair). Also, in my case MFA didn't solve anything.

Huge issue or not, we will never know how spread the issue is. If the issue comes from a batch of defective mirror boxes, by now Canon certainly fixed whatever they were doing wrong in the affected cameras. Because, it's not the first time they manufacture cameras and it doesn't seem like an unknown issue ! So at one point in time there will certainly be more almost no similar focus issues.

At least, I can say that on your side you're certainly trying to confuse people by not even reading the rest of the posts. If you want something to read here you go this is everything I learned up until now :
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16947213&postcount=719
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17011802&postcount=890
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17068543&postcount=1128
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17049246&postcount=1097
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17055295&postcount=1105
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17046799&postcount=1088
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1380558&highlight=70d+poll

We still need a definitive testing method to isolate the issue and to justify the repair. Because taking blurry pictures doesn't work all the time to spot the issue (see one of my links). I would greatly appreciate if you could use your working camera to map the AF sensor coverage. This method gave me similar measurements with two of my fast lenses (Canon 40mm 2.8 pancake, and Sigma 18-35 1.8) and might also work with slow lenses. But since you callled us measurbators I'm sure you wont do anything !

[pdqgp]

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@Molybdo42 wrote:

Measurbaters... Unfortunately for us, consumers have to prove to Canon that our cameras are faulty to get it fixed ! If it was a perfect world we wouldn't have to go through all this. I don't want to end up with a 950€ paperweight and you would do the same in my situation.

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Yes measurbaters.  If it's not applicable to you then fine, but yes, on every camera from the 10D up it's been the same.  Not saying that some cameras couldn't be faulty, but the ones that are can be sent to Canon for a fix.  If you've done this and they say it's working then you need to send it with your lenses. 

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You have a working camera, good for you ! In my case I went through two different bodies with focus issues, I'm now sending my camera for repair for the second time. In total my camera has been immobilized for almost 4 weeks and it still isn't fixed (i've yet to hear from the second repair). Also, in my case MFA didn't solve anything.

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MFA aren't the issue here.  Those adjustments are lens specific and to adjust for FF or BF.  If your shots are competely OOF then it's not an MFA issue.  MFA is also just a temp. fix not meant to be a perm. one.     They might stay perm. and an owner can deal with using the adjustments, but chances are it still won't be perfect.  The lens likely need calibrated and the best thing to do is send them to Canon.  

Regarding sending it in, that's fine.  You do what you have to do to get it fixed, but if you continue to have problems you'll need to have the lenses reviewed.   I would hope you sent them in at some point.

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@Molybdo42 wrote:

At least, I can say that on your side you're certainly trying to confuse people by not even reading the rest of the posts. If you want something to read here you go this is everything I learned up until now :
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16947213&postcount=719
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17011802&postcount=890
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17068543&postcount=1128
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17049246&postcount=1097
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17055295&postcount=1105
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17046799&postcount=1088
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1380558&highlight=70d+poll

We still need a definitive testing method to isolate the issue and to justify the repair. Because taking blurry pictures doesn't work all the time to spot the issue (see one of my links). I would greatly appreciate if you could use your working camera to map the AF sensor coverage. This method gave me similar measurements with two of my fast lenses (Canon 40mm 2.8 pancake, and Sigma 18-35 1.8) and might also work with slow lenses. But since you callled us measurbators I'm sure you wont do anything !

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The best way to test the camera is to go out and take pictures.   I use mine all the time and sure, I get the occasional OOF or missed shot.  Focus systems aren't perfect.  I"m quite familiar with the fact that focus points aren't limited by the size of the box shown.  That box is a reference point for us as users.   Post up some images and exif data.  Preferably link us to full size images with focus point data included.

No need to "map" or measure anything.  I'd like to see actual images.  Happy to post some if you need them.  Just tell me what parameters you want me to use.  Heck, I'll test it against your settings just for my own sake.  Tell me what to shoot at.    I have a pretty usable list of fast lenses.

35mm f/2

50mm f1.8

24-70L f/2.8

100-400L

Tamron 70-200 f/2.8 (newest model) - Tack Sharp

Tamron 90mm f/2.8 (Macro) - Tack Sharp

[pdqgp]

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@Molybdo42 wrote:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=16947213&postcount=719
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17011802&postcount=890
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17068543&postcount=1128
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17049246&postcount=1097
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17055295&postcount=1105
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=17046799&postcount=1088
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1380558&highlight=70d+poll

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I read the above and I'm not sure what you want me to look at or so.  Nothing stands out.  There's a poll whereby now it's at 14% of the replies have issues.   Not surprising on many levels given the thread.   Let's put poll together in a thread talking about problems.  Of course the percentages will be higher.  Even still that's lower than I would have suspected.  Ironic really.

Seriously, go take some shots and link us to those.  Not "test" shots that make no sense like shooting a gate at f/1.8 with a cheap lens that's well known for having a poor focus system and spotty results.  Heck, I own that same crappy lens.   Also, even with the 24-70L, don't expect f/2.8 shots to be tack sharp.  The lens is inherrently soft at f/2.8 and that's why an MKII has been released.  Again, I own the MKI version.   

Keep the shots real with real-world settings.   Here are a couple basics:

Want a test shot?  Sure, even I tested sharpness of lenses.

http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro/image/156561983/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro/image/156561982/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro/image/156112243/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro/image/156096054/original.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro/image/156072197/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro/image/156175304/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro/image/156764715/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro/image/156519936/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro/image/156764649/original.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/timothylauro/image/156764612/original.jpg