Help on moiré and noise on videos

[amsportdesign]

HI there,
I am new to videography with DSLR, I just bought a 700d to get myself on the learning track with both photos and videos.
Basically yesterday I went outside (as my aim is to make sports videos and travels) with the standard 18-55 lens aiming to try and learn the settings of my camera
After watching some tutorials I set up the camera as PAL 1920 x1080 25 fps / 1/50 / ISO 100 in sunny daylight. On camera was kind of ok, but once watched on my computer I noticed I was getting a lot of noise in my shadows, plus things like foliage, tiles, bricks, railings or any detailed pattern around were getting lots of moiré / aliasing effects.
I then noticed that these effects were less with a wide focal length, more with a closer one.

Following some tutorial suggestions I lowered the shutter speed to 1/40 and then to 1/30, then I went to set my picture scene to neutral and I lowered the sharpening at 0, same for contrast. Then I lowered just a bit the colors and saturation trying to obtain the flattest scene possible. As of the last thing I did put my WB in "sun" preset. The whole thing solved almost completely the moiré and but unfortunately, I could still see some aliasing here and there where the sun was hitting harder on roof or bricks in the background. The noise instead was still there in my shadow.

So I went testing the same scene with different f-stop (from 3.5 to 22) at different ISO (from 100 to 400) and even if it solved a bit at certain combinations, the noise and the aliasing were pretty much always there more or less.

Last thing last I repeated the whole test with my 50mm 1.8 and even if it was better, still was not smooth as it should be in my opinion.

Now, the questions I have are:
Is there anything I am missing, doing wrong?
Having the shutter speed that low could be a problem on fast moving (sports) scene / fast panning? If yes how can I address the issue without getting back the moiré / aliasing effect?
Are there any kind of antialiasing filters to help to solve the issue?
What can I do to reduce noise at maximum with my camera?

Anything you can suggest will be really appreciated, I would like to get the best out of this camera before considering anything different. Thanks a lot to anyone that will take the time to reply to this long post. 

[amsportdesign]

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@kvbarkley wrote:

The solution the pros use is more light.

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I see. Really interesting answer.
Can you please tell me how to create more light when I am shooting outdoor, a landscape scene, panning on a nice tree line during a clear sunny day?

Thanks.

[RobertTheFat]

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@amsportdesign wrote:

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@Waddizzle wrote:

I think you might be pixel peeping too much.

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Ahahahah thanks for your reply, I see your opinion here.

I appreciate your suggestions about taking still photos first, is something I do regularly for the WB.
Regarding comparing stills to actually see the downsample result, I think I understand where you want to bring the discussion here.

The thing is, I know why cameras are creating the moiré/aliasing effect, what I do not know is how expert people tackle the issue, what kind of solutions "pros" are putting in place to have smooth, not pixelated videos published. Clean videos are out there, lots are taken with my same camera, meaning it is possible. What I am asking here is HOW. That's it.

If anybody has real tips or good suggestions, pro suggestions on how to tackle the issue, will be much appreciated.
I can see that from my i-mac screen the issue are a bit less visible than from my BenQ screen at home, but still the image look like a real low quality one, worst than my phone, so there must be a solution somewhere. 

Thanks to anybody  

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If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're shooting your videos with a low-end kit lens on a 700D. I don't shoot video, so forgive me if this comment is out of place. But I will opine, with considerable confidence, that only a minuscule number of professional sports and travel videos are shot with a kit lens on a 700D. If you're not getting the results you've seen the pros get, I suggest you begin by assessing the suitability of your equipment.

[amsportdesign]

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're shooting your videos with a low-end kit lens on a 700D. I don't shoot video, so forgive me if this comment is out of place. But I will opine, with considerable confidence, that only a minuscule number of professional sports and travel videos are shot with a kit lens on a 700D. If you're not getting the results you've seen the pros get, I suggest you begin by assessing the suitability of your equipment.

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Dear friend, there are way better cameras than mine out there making the same aliasing/moiré issue.

For example here is a video made by a professional talking about the 5d MK2 having the same problem.
It explains why DSLR cameras are having the issue and how this company decided to solve the problem by making a filter to use directly on top of the sensor.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmL53LzURI&t=47s  
This is a good solution, available for my camera as well, but before to spend 300$ on a filter I thought to come here and ask for the help of someone who had experienced the same problem and maybe can give me some good tips.

For the rest, I was not saying that pros are using a 700d and a kit lens to make their professional videos, I was saying that many people are using my same camera for their videos, getting good-enough results like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2urjFrcX7bs. No aliasing, no moire, no noise. and then I was asking for suggestions, tips, whatever from anybody including professionals.
Please avoid to answer if you are not aware of the problem, you do not have experience with shooting videos, trying to take the piss out of people like me. Not necessary, not useful, not required. Sorry but you are the third one here, trying to imply things not required.

Now, having said that, does anybody knows how to help me to avoid to get these problems in my footage please?

[BurnUnit]

I think your sample clips were shot under somewhat challenging conditions as far as lighting goes. There's a wide dynamic range and a lot of high contrast areas that helps magnify some of the imperfections you're seeing. I suspect that shooting under more even lighting will give you more pleasing results.

Also, this paragraph from the DPReview site caught my attention. It referred to the 700D/T6i specifically but would affect other cameras as well.

"The STM designation is of particular interest to video shooters as it has the potential for quiet autofocus and improved AF speed. Those familiar with using just about any camcorder are accustomed to smooth and reasonably accurate autofocus, while the average SLR focuses slowly (indeed previous Rebels only focused when prompted by the user). Because an SLR can't use its phase-detect sensor while in Live View and video modes, the camera is usually left to struggle with contrast-detect autofocus. And, because non-STM lenses aren't designed with this focus method or for this purpose, the results were often jerky shifts in focus with focus motor noise audible on the video's sound track. Older Rebels were even known to gain up exposure during video if you asked them to focus."

Something else you might try. If you aren't already, and you're shooting from a tripod, turn off image stabilization and auto-focus just in case the camera is "hunting" and trying to make some unnecessary adjustments. Manually focus on your subject and if you can keep the lens stopped down a little it should give you a fair amount of DOF.

Also, I'm not familiar with Adobe Premier. But Corel Video Studio allows you to control some settings depending on your choice of saved file format. Saving as an MP4, I believe, allows a choice of bit rates which will affect the amount of compression applied.

A lower bit rate will give you a "watchable" video for Youtube and a smaller file size with some visible compression. A higher bit rate will give you noticeably better quality and a much larger file size as well taking longer to render after editing. You might want to save a bit of time by using a short 1 or 2 minute clip and processing it at different bit rates to find a good balance between video quality and file size.

[amsportdesign]

@BurnUnit  I was literally looking forward to your answer here. 
I love and appreciate you taking the time to write such a long reply. Thanks a lot.

Going through it,
"I suspect that shooting under more even lighting will give you more pleasing results."
generally speaking for sure shooting at a better light will be no arm aiming for better quality, especially thinking at the first video sample I made for you, I think you are definitely right, but still as I was saying in other posts above, there are people using my same camera with even lower light condition and it works just fine, I just need to talk to them to discover how they do it.

"Older Rebels were even known to gain up exposure during video if you asked them to focus.... Manually focus on your subject and if you can keep the lens stopped down a little it should give you a fair amount of DOF." 

I was not aware of the exposure gaining for older models in autofocus, this is a good one to know.
I definitely have in my list to learn to focus manually. At the moment I find it a bit difficult when using photo lenses (not cine) because the ring is so sensible and does not have a stop. That's why I have In my shopping list a follow focus, that should help together with a rig or handheld stabilizer to deal with this whole thing. This is a really good tips, thanks.

About the bit rate you're right again will definitely dig more into it. 

My good news is that while I was looking for videos to use as an example of a good shot (for me), I found this guy on youtube making these beautiful videos using my same camera. Of course he is been asked with similar questions in the comments, and he replied with some suggestions including the ntsc/pal choice, we were talking at the beginning of this conversation here.
Looks like he is using ntsc 1080 p30 to record (and then slowing it down to 80% or change it to p24 when editing), together with a free Technicolor Cinestyle picture profile (directly installed on camera). I have asked him about my questions, and waiting for the reply.

In the mean time I think I will try to shoot something with his settings, including the color profile and see what happen.
Then when editing for sure I will spend some time testing out the bitrate as you suggested.

Thanks for the help BurnUnit...much much appreciated.

[BurnUnit]

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@amsportdesign wrote:

...I think you are definitely right, but still as I was saying in other posts above, there are people using my same camera with even lower light condition and it works just fine, I just need to talk to them to discover how they do it.

Looks like he is using ntsc 1080 p30 to record (and then slowing it down to 80% or change it to p24 when editing), together with a free Technicolor Cinestyle picture profile (directly installed on camera). I have asked him about my questions, and waiting for the reply.

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Just to clarify. You need sufficient lighting for good results, but my suggestion was for more even lighting. More of an issue of "quality" of light as opposed to the sheer "quantity" of light. Maybe try shooting some in open shade or with overcast skies. Manually set your exposure and focus, keep the aperture closed down a bit and get closer to your subjects to fill the field of view more like in the sample videos you posted.

I wouldn't load any third-party profiles into the camera, at least not yet. You don't need to add any more variables while you're trying to troubleshoot your video quality. I'm curious to know if you see any improvement between shooting PAL or NTSC. I'd suspect it might only make a difference if viewed on the wrong standard of TV.

[amsportdesign]

Practice make perfect they say, so...I went out yesterday trying to practicing my manual focus skills and testing all the stuff we were talking about here. Plus, during the last few days, I have watched tons of videos and tuts, and I want to share what I have learned so far by applying tips from many people (including you @BurnUNit) and taking action on some observation I made watching other videos. Maybe is helpful to someone in my same situation and I am happy to help anybody to avoid the same struggle.

_ lots of videos out there have aliasing or noise here and there, you are not alone.
_ for wider shots the best way to get away from aliasing and moiré is to have the camera fixed, no panning. The more you move the camera moving, the more you can see these kinds of trouble coming

_ USE A FLAT COLOUR PRESET, I have downloaded the technicolor cinestyle and it works way better than without. If you do not want to download anything at least set one of your custom profile with the lowest possible sharpness. 80% of aliasing and moiré is caused by the sharpness sensitivity of your camera. No worry you can get it back later in post, but while shooting put it as lower as you can, put all the rest to 0..colors ecc..). I did try both (cinestyle and custom made) and the cinestyle is better because somehow it retain a bit more details in the shadows in my opinion, but it's all up to your choice really.
_ use a faster lens if you can, more light means less noise, even outside, even on a sunny day. Remember to get a ND filter if you shoot outside to get back some f. stops and get a better exposure. Even an extremely cheap one like my yongnuo 50 mm does a good job with that. Than you can take action on the noise on post production, easy.
_take some still shots before shooting the video, checking the results will help you with the WB and most of all to decide how many ISO to use. Remember the more ISO the more noise. Personally I put a rule here to myself to don't go over 1600. 
_ NTSC/PAL does not make a big difference honestly, in my case (with a 700d) the only difference is a wider choice on frame rate, that's it.
_ shutter speed. The rule of thumb says should be double the frame rate. 24/25p =1/50  - 30p = 1/60 . BUT more often than not, you can help your camera coping a bit better with aliasing/moiré/and light flickering by slowing down a bit the shutter speed. NEVER GO FASTER than the double or the picture will look choppy. You want a bit of blur in the movements so keep it double if you can, go slower if needed.

_ in my case using manual focus rather than auto, helps a lot. First because in the 700d the autofocus on video is not great, second because you can cheat a bit the game by focusing on some particular and get all the rest shallow. What is defocused of course does not get these bad effects.


Having said that, here is a short video I made yesterday practicing on MF and testing all these things. It's not perfect as I would like to, but way better than before in my opinion. https://youtu.be/8piBVE1OQME. 
I didn't apply any denoising here, my interest now is to experiment as much as possible with the ISO and f stops to get less noise possible in the original footage. The better the original, the less editing I have to do. Then of course if really needed we can deal with that in post.

Next step is to do some indoor / sport footages. I might discover something new and so keep looking at this post, if interested because honestly I think this should be the aim of a community and not what I have seen from some people during this conversation.

Thanks.

[Waddizzle]

I use this link frequently to select lenses.  The content at this link has not changed in the last few years.  

http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

You may want to take note of the hyperfocal distance.  I like to use a manual focus 14mm lens as a walk around lens. I dial in the hyperfocal distance, and everything beyond a couple of feet is razor sharp.  I do not need to refocus it for every shot, just check it to see of the focus ring has accidentally turned.

[BurnUnit]

Now you're getting somewhere! Looks like you're starting to get a handle on things. The lighting in your sample clip looks to be much more concentrated toward the middle of the histogram. The camera isn't having to struggle to resolve detail (possibly unwanted) in a lot of bright highlights or deep shadows.

There's a couple of areas that look slightly underexposed to me but I'm guessing that's just part of the cinema profile that you've installed. That and the fact that I'm looking at the clip without of any sort of context.

Good catch too on reducing or turning off any in-camera sharpening.

[RobertTheFat]

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@amsportdesign wrote:

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're shooting your videos with a low-end kit lens on a 700D. I don't shoot video, so forgive me if this comment is out of place. But I will opine, with considerable confidence, that only a minuscule number of professional sports and travel videos are shot with a kit lens on a 700D. If you're not getting the results you've seen the pros get, I suggest you begin by assessing the suitability of your equipment.

---

Dear friend, there are way better cameras than mine out there making the same aliasing/moiré issue.

For example here is a video made by a professional talking about the 5d MK2 having the same problem.
It explains why DSLR cameras are having the issue and how this company decided to solve the problem by making a filter to use directly on top of the sensor.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYmL53LzURI&t=47s  
This is a good solution, available for my camera as well, but before to spend 300$ on a filter I thought to come here and ask for the help of someone who had experienced the same problem and maybe can give me some good tips.

For the rest, I was not saying that pros are using a 700d and a kit lens to make their professional videos, I was saying that many people are using my same camera for their videos, getting good-enough results like this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2urjFrcX7bs. No aliasing, no moire, no noise. and then I was asking for suggestions, tips, whatever from anybody including professionals.
Please avoid to answer if you are not aware of the problem, you do not have experience with shooting videos, trying to take the piss out of people like me. Not necessary, not useful, not required. Sorry but you are the third one here, trying to imply things not required.

Now, having said that, does anybody knows how to help me to avoid to get these problems in my footage please?

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Those who want to brag about their technique downplay the effect of better equipment. Those who know their technique isn't very good buy better equipment and brag (or complain) about that.

My position has always been that better equipment makes any photographer better. How much better depends on how good you already are. The better you already are, the more difference better equipment makes.