Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

[Bazsl]

Does anyone have an idea why Canon cannot produce a competitive full frame sensor? Seriously. It has been five and a half years since the Nikon D800 was introduced and over six years since the Sony A7R was introduced and Canon has yet to produce a camera that is competitive with either. Forget about the Nikon D850 and the Sony A7R III. I am sure I will not live long enough to see Canon produce a full frame camera that competes with Nikon's or Sony's current models.

I can see three possible problems.

1) Lack of engineering talent. (This seems unlikely.)

2) Unwillingness to license the IP they need from Sony.

3) Inability to manufacture a competitive sensor.

While 2 is possible it does not make sense to me. Canon states publicly that they manufacture their own sensors using their own foundry equipment. Why Canon promotes this is beyond me since it is a feature with no benefit whatever. No one cares who manufactures Canon's sensors. Customers only care about the sensor's performance. However, I suspose 3 is possible that someone inside Canon is opposed to using and outside foundry, as Nikon did with the D850 sensor, and this is inhibiting Canon's ability to compete.

I would really like to know exactly what is preventing Canon from producing a competitive sensor because I am so frustrated that I am beginning to dream about some way to justify the enormous cost of jumping from Canon to Nikon. Any thoughts?

[ebiggs1]

Never say never, Robert!  

And.....have a wonderful New Year 2018.  Don't forget to chaneg the date in your cameras!

[diverhank]

I think the OP is a bit behind the latest news...

The new Canon sensors in the 5D Mark IV and the 1DX II have essentially caught up with the latest Sony and Nikon, per DxOMark - an outfit that never liked Canon in the first place and therefore must have grudgingly admitted it. 

And I predict that Canon will leapfrog over the competition in the next round.

[RobertTheFat]

---

ebiggs1 wrote:

Never say never, Robert!  

And.....have a wonderful New Year 2018.  Don't forget to change the date in your cameras!

---

Happy New Year to you too, Ernie!

But why should I have to change the date? I just checked my 5D3 and my wife's 7D2, and they both show the correct date and time. I sometimes synchronize my cameras (using EOSU) when I'm going on a shoot with more than one, but otherwise I don't have to touch the date/time settings except when we go on or off of DST.

[Bazsl]

Remembering that the original post was about full frame sensors and nothing else here are a couple of comments.

1) Would I rather have the D850 sensor instead of the sensor in my 5DsR? Absolutely! My 5DsR is great up to ISO 400. It is useable at ISO 800. At ISO 1600 and above the raw files are very noisy. My friend's D850 raw files at ISO 6400 have noise comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800. What's not to like? Stepping back a generation, his D810 at ISO 3200 is comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800.

2) Nikon is not dependent on Sony for their sensors. Nikon designed the D850 sensor in house and has it manufactured by TowerJazz, the Israeli foundry with plants around the world, who also manufacture Leica sensors. Google "Who makes the D850 sensor".

I certainly agree that Canon makes great glass. My 100-400 II is my favorite lens which, coupled with my 5DsR, has produced photos with astounding detail. I also love my M5. It is a superb small lightweight camera made better by the fact that I can use my L glass on it. My Nikon friend drools every time I get it out. In addition, Canon's service and support is the best available. However, I don't see how anyone can compare the specs and the photos produced by the D850 to Canon's current offerings and not agree that Canon is well behind on sensors. The only good news is that the 5D IV was a big step forward. I hope the 5DsR II and the 5D V will be equally large improvements.

[Waddizzle]

---

@Bazsl wrote:

Remembering that the original post was about full frame sensors and nothing else here are a couple of comments.

1) Would I rather have the D850 sensor instead of the sensor in my 5DsR? Absolutely! My 5DsR is great up to ISO 400. It is useable at ISO 800. At ISO 1600 and above the raw files are very noisy. My friend's D850 raw files at ISO 6400 have noise comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800. What's not to like? Stepping back a generation, his D810 at ISO 3200 is comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800.

2) Nikon is not dependent on Sony for their sensors. Nikon designed the D850 sensor in house and has it manufactured by TowerJazz, the Israeli foundry with plants around the world, who also manufacture Leica sensors. Google "Who makes the D850 sensor".

I certainly agree that Canon makes great glass. My 100-400 II is my favorite lens which, coupled with my 5DsR, has produced photos with astounding detail. I also love my M5. It is a superb small lightweight camera made better by the fact that I can use my L glass on it. My Nikon friend drools every time I get it out. In addition, Canon's service and support is the best available. However, I don't see how anyone can compare the specs and the photos produced by the D850 to Canon's current offerings and not agree that Canon is well behind on sensors. The only good news is that the 5D IV was a big step forward. I hope the 5DsR II and the 5D V will be equally large improvements.

---

You’re right.  Trade in your Canon gear for a Nikon D850.  I want some cheap gear.  BTW, I thought you said Sony.

[ebiggs1]

"But why should I have to change the date?"

 The date/time does but Robert the copyright date does not update.   

[ebiggs1]

"1) Would I rather have the D850 sensor instead of the sensor in my 5DsR? Absolutely! My 5DsR is great up to ISO 400. It is useable at ISO 800. At ISO 1600 and above the raw files are very noisy. My friend's D850 raw files at ISO 6400 have noise comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800. What's not to like? Stepping back a generation, his D810 at ISO 3200 is comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800."

You answered my question and that is your choice.  I would not but I will say at first I did consider buying a D850. It is impressive no doubt.  I will grant you it has better high ISO performance.  But that is where the "better" ends.  Like I said a camera/lens combo is a sum of its parts and specs.  Not simply one.  If high ISO is your main most thing thn you should probably buy the D850.  But if the best camera is than one of the current 5D models is.  5DS R, yes!

This is no different than the guys that try to sell you on a 6D or 6D Mk II in favor of the 80D because it has one stop better low light performance over the 80D.  When the 80D as a package is clearly the better camera.

As FF sensors go, I understand Canon has been using age old equipment to manufacture their sensors.  A few years ago they started a big upgrade and improvement to the foundry.  We will have to wait and see if that means good things to come.  Canon already has unique sensors that no one else even dreams about.  Will that technology trickle down to our consumer cameras, probably!

Nikon has no sensor foundry that I no of.  They outsource everything whether they design it or not.  Does this make Nikon sensors bad?  No of course not but it does put them into a second class producer company.

For most of my life I was a photographer.  Worked for a large company for 40 years.  Now I am a 'gear head' so this debate is right up my alley.  I just like camera gear. Always have. I buy camera gear sometimes I rent it. I sell it on.  I test and play with it. 

One last thought for this reply, the lens you choose has more to do with IQ than the camera.  What'a say?  

[RobertTheFat]

---

@ebiggs1 wrote:

"But why should I have to change the date?"

 The date/time does but Robert the copyright date does not update.   

---

Nice recovery, Ernie!    But I don't think the copyright date is intended to update. Don't you want it to reflect the date the work was created?

I suppose you make a good point, though. I've never included the date in my copyright notices. I guess I assumed that the presence of the date in the Exif info would sufficie.

One thing I have tried to include is the ubiquitous "circled c" character. But unless there's been a very recent firmware change, I've yet to encounter a Canon camera that would accept it. Are you listening, Canon?

[ebiggs1]

"2) Nikon is not dependent on Sony for their sensors."

For the most part, they are.  They contract Sony to make a million sensors or whatever give or take a few thousand.  When that contract is fulfilled it is done.  Nikon has no sensors.

Sony is just one sensor manufacturer.  I think Sony is the largest maker but Sanyo, Samsung, Toshiba and others make a lot of camera sensors.  I also understand from my sources that Sony never offers their top sensors for sale.  Makes sense I guess.  Why would they?

Now I hear Canon will make sensors for sale on the market, too.

[Danny]

Hi, Bob!

The EOS-1D X Mark II can accept the circle-C (©) copyright symbol via a firmware update, as can the EOS 5D Mark IV. This is done by inputting IPTC metadata directly into each image file as it's taken by the photographer.

We hope this helps!