R7/R10 vs an M5 upgrade

[Mastro2]

Just curious to see why Canon chose to introduce the R7/R10 series and the RF-S lens rather than  improving on the M5 line and the M lenses? I love the form factor of the M5 for travel, and obviously the R series has newer technology but Canon has shown they can make an APS-C the size of an M, all they need to do is put some more tech (like IBIS) into the M and give it some faster lenses and they would have the ultimate travel camera. The R7/R10 and the RF-S seem like they are competing for a similar market. I’ve got nothing against the R series, in fact, just got back from dragging my 20 lb R kit all over Europe, but if I were shooting APS-C instead of full frame, would much rather have an M series size (but updated features) rather than an R series size kit. Just my two cents wondering why Canon would sabotage their own M line and have to introduce a whole new lens line RF-S in the process.

[shadowsports]

Greetings,

While I understand the M series has been very good for you, I would not invest further in this platform.  Choice is yours of course. 

[ebiggs1]

"I would not invest further in this platform.  Choice is yours of course."

Good advice.

Sometimes it is more cost effective to start all over then upgrading an existing platform. The M series is just a Powershot on steroids. IMHO, the M series was just a stop gap, get something to market without much effort project.

[Tronhard]

Personally, I have the feeling that the M-series has been a limited success for Canon, but is limited to a specific set of market spaces: people like you who like the small form-factor of the a system with APS-C sensors and interchangeable lenses.  These would include social photographers, travellers and hikers who value space and weight, and those who might, through age and injury, not feel comfortable with conventional DSLRs - I was one of the latter for a while.  Also, without doubt are those who loved these units (and seem to still do) for vlogging, especially the M50 MkII. Some of the lenses are truly excellent, such as the 23 and 35mm primes, the 11-22 zoom.  It is, to me, significant that Canon have replicated the 15-45 and 18-150 lens range in the new RF mount.  It suggests to me that they are trying to slowly wean the market onto the RF mount.

The issue against longer lenses and more features within the bodies is the super small size of those bodies.  It limited the lens size - the max one can go up to is 200mm in native format.  Of course, one can add any EF or EF-S lens on via an adapter, but that adds a lot of bulk and weight.  Similarly putting in IBIS and face-tracking technology into such small bodies could well have created bloating - but I am speculating on that.   It seems that Canon see the future in the small size of their R-series where there is room for the new tech and some space to cool it.  By sharing a mount between RF and RF-S lenses without a mirror, they have a much higher level of interchangeability than with the DSLR series.

That said, the last announcement I saw seemed to indicate that Canon will hold the line on at least some of the current models, but I think further development is unlikely. 

I have three M-5 units and all of the EF-M lenses except the 28mm macro unit and I will continue to use them for hiking or days when I just want to carry something relatively small, but for more serious work, I will continue to use my DSLRs and R-series gear.

[Mastro2]

Agree Trevor. Maybe Canon will introduce a compact R body at some point, similar to the Sony Alpha 7c. Thinking about it though, Canon now has 5 active lens mounts: EF, EF-S, M, RF, and RF-S. Granted, the EF can be used across all,  but to optimize your kit (mostly weight wise), it’s best to choose a native lens. For me that means a suite of EF lenses for my 6D Mark 2, M lenses for my M5, and a bunch of R lenses for the R. Gets expensive!
I also use the M for hiking, and as you point out “technique will always outlast tech”, I’ve seen some amazing shots from the M. My issue with it is there are not really that many fast lenses for it, and probably none for the future, so for low light, I go to the R system and the f2.8 zooms.

[Waddizzle]

The M Series bodies have gained popularity because they are useful as a pocket camera in walk around scenarios.  Because of the small weight and size, they are also great for shooting selfie videos.  

I like to go into NYC because I love all of the Art Deco architecture.  The M3 with the EF-M 22mm f/2 is perfect.  I can capture high quality images without looking like Joe “the Pro” Photographer.  I am not carrying medium to large size bag on public transportation.  For me, it is a perfect fit for that type of shooting.

This is The Oculus subway station next to Ground Zero in lower Manhattan.

[Mastro2]

Exactly the reason I have an M5. Great shots!

[amfoto1]

I've got an  M5 and several lenses myself... nice little camera that's quite capable of making good images. But there are limitations... mostly so few lenses for the system, a so-so autofocus system and lack of some now-common features in mirrorless cameras. The EOS M-series and EF-M lenses are a dead end. They've never gotten the love they deserve and will be phased out sooner or later. They are still some great cameras and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if it met my needs and I didn't need a camera that can grow with me in the future.

The R-series cameras and RF mount lenses are supplanting both the Canon M-series system and Canon DSLRs with their EF and EF-S lenses. It just makes sense that Canon will consolidate everything under one mount, rather than trying to maintain three distinct systems with limited cross-compatibility.

Canon is doing some great things with the R-series, too. They are what the M-series could have been. The latest four R-series models (R6, R5, R7 and R10) have some of the best autofocus systems available from any manufacturer. The RF lens selection increases every few months, is already quite comprehensive and includes a lot of clever innovation. There are already more than three times as many RF lenses than there ever were EF-M lenses, and Canon has predicted the number of RF lenses will nearly double within two or three years.

Much as I like my little M5 for some things, I will probably replace it soon. I've been considering both the R10 and R7.

FWIW, while it's slightly taller, the R10 is nearly the same width and depth as the M5.... and it actually weighs slightly less. If I recall correctly, the R10 even uses the same battery as the M5, but the R10 gets more shots with it.

P.S. Accustomed to shooting with DSLRs fitted with battery grips, the M5 felt uncomfortably small to me. I actually ended up fitting it with an L-bracket to add some size and weight. I generally dislike L-brackets, but in this case one worked out well. I was looking for an Arca-Swiss compatible quick release plate for the camera anyway... There simply aren't many being made to fit the M-series caemras. Then I lucked onto a Chinese-made L-bracket that was inexpensive ($16 US off eBay), but turned out to be surprisingly well made and is very good fitting. Problem solved!

P.S. Canon will probably introduce more APS-C R-series in the future... but the R10 has only just arrived in stores and the R7 is flying off shelves! I expect the next model Canon will introduce will be something along the line of the Sony ZV-E10 or Nikon Z30. Those are "vlogger" cameras without a viewfinder... an increasingly popular type of camera. In some markets Canon has ruled this segment with their M50/M50 Mk II. I bet they were thinking along those lines with the R10. But may need to come up with a version that removes the EVF and installs IBIS. Personally I have no interest in vlogging, but a whole lot of other people do! 

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Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7DII (x2), 7D(x2) some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & ZENFOLIO 
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[ebiggs1]

"They've never gotten the love they deserve and will be phased out sooner or later."

That's right they got more than they deserve but you are right about them ending soon.

[Hazel_T]

Hi Mastro2,

Through Canon support we are not given information on why new models are released for one product line and not another. Canon appreciates feedback on products customers would like us to release. 

We have a team that documents and handles customer feedback. I have already alerted them to this email, but if you want to contact them directly in the future they can be reached by going to our website HERE and selecting Feedback in the top left corner of the site. We do take customer suggestions and feedback into consideration when we are updating our products and processes.