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Is there a Camera that's mirror less, full frame, and has the features of the R7

ccm7676
Apprentice

I currently have a Canon EOS 1300D and Im considering upgrading. The Canon EOS 1300D is a great camera and has served me well for the past 4 years and was also my first proper camera. I now would like to upgrade to something with better low light preformance, light weight, and with new features so I can use it for at least the next 4 years. I was very intrigued by the EOS R7 because it has some cool features like HDR , Canon log 3, 4K video, and great autofocus. But it unfortunately has an APS-C sensor which I've heard and experienced the not so great low light performance of. Is there a camera out there that is somewhat like the EOS R but with the newer features of the EOS R7?

2 ACCEPTED SOLUTIONS

Thanks I wasn't aware of that. After some further research I really like the R6 the only downside is the pricetag and 20mp instead of 32mp.

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I am glad that you appear to have a resolution to your question.

I hope you have a better perspective on my initial response.  There isn’t a full frame, direct counterpart to the 32MP R7 at this time.  You have (4) choices: R, RP, R5, and the R6.  

The R3 is an option, too, but I took it off the table due to its price.  I took the R and RP off the table because they each lack IBIS.  That leaves the R5 and R6, neither of which has a sensor resolution comparable to the R7.

Personlly, I would go for the R6.  The 20MP sensor is reportedly similar to the one found in the 1Dx Mark III.  

The R7 has pretty good ISO range, though.  It seems made for the serious hobbyist who is into action photography.  My only strike against it is the lack of a battery grip accessory.

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"The right mouse button is your friend."

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9 REPLIES 9

Waddizzle
Legend

I think the R7 has a 32MP sensor.  The R5 has 45MP and the R6 has 20MP.  Take your pick.

The EOS R has a 32MP sensor, but the frame rate is very low.  The 32MP is about the only thing that it has in common with the R7.

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"The right mouse button is your friend."

My question isn't the amount of mp. I would like to make low light shots I heard that APS-C sensors aren't as good at that as full frame sensors at that. But the R7 isnt full frame its APS-C that's why its not the camera I would go for.

I did some tests of the C70, the R5, and the R5C which might give you an idea of how they perform in low light.  I didn't have any APS cameras to test, though.  https://moonblink.info/MudLake/gear#Candlelight

I am glad that you appear to have a resolution to your question.

I hope you have a better perspective on my initial response.  There isn’t a full frame, direct counterpart to the 32MP R7 at this time.  You have (4) choices: R, RP, R5, and the R6.  

The R3 is an option, too, but I took it off the table due to its price.  I took the R and RP off the table because they each lack IBIS.  That leaves the R5 and R6, neither of which has a sensor resolution comparable to the R7.

Personlly, I would go for the R6.  The 20MP sensor is reportedly similar to the one found in the 1Dx Mark III.  

The R7 has pretty good ISO range, though.  It seems made for the serious hobbyist who is into action photography.  My only strike against it is the lack of a battery grip accessory.

--------------------------------------------------------
"The right mouse button is your friend."

jrhoffman75
Legend

Are your lenses for the 1300D EF-S lenses? If so, using them on a full frame R series camera will result in a cropped image, significantly reducing the image pixel size. The EOS R7 is a significant upgrade over your 1300D. 

canon r7 low light capabilities - Search (bing.com)

John Hoffman
Conway, NH

1D X Mark III, Many lenses, Pixma PRO-100, Pixma TR8620a, LR Classic

Thanks I wasn't aware of that. After some further research I really like the R6 the only downside is the pricetag and 20mp instead of 32mp.

The Canon R7 would be a big upgrade from your current camera.

It will have at least 1 stop higher usable ISO, according to the following:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Canon%20EOS%207D_14,Canon%20EOS%20R6_14,Canon%20EO... 

Note: I had to substitute the Canon 7D for your camera. They have not tested the 1300D (called the Rebel T6 in N. America). The 7D uses the same 18MP sensor, but uses of image processors where your camera only uses a single one... I would also imagine the more pro-oriented 7D also uses more advanced algorithms so even with the same 18MP sensor it probably has better high ISO/low light performance than your camera. This would mean you could expect even greater difference with R7.

Looking at that noise comparison chart you can see how the 7D (in green, proxy for your 1300D) is the worst of the three. The R7 (in black) is about a stop better at all ISOs, in spite of having nearly double the resolution.... while the R6 (in blue) is about 2 stops better (but at 20MP is low resolution for a full frame camera, to achieve that).

Below is another chart showing dynamic range at various ISO settings for the same three cameras. As ISO increases, dynamic range decreases. While you can adjust dynamic range in post-processing, there is some loss of detail at the extremes as DR decreases. https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Canon%20EOS%207D,Canon%20EOS%20R6,Canon%20EOS%20R7 

This confirms what we saw in the noise chart... the 7D (proxy for your 1300D) is about one stop worse than R7 and two stops worse than R6.

In other words, if 1600 is the highest ISO you are willing to use with your current camera you will find 3200 to be usable on R7 and 6400 usable on R6. But there's a lot more to it than that. This doesn't take into account a lot of things, like the much higher resolution of the R7 or the 1.6X "teleconverter" effect it offers, which can be really helpful you do a lot of shooting with telephotos. Your 1300D has the same 1.6X effect.... you would give that up with R6. For example, where you use a 300mm lens on your 1300D you will need a 500mm lens on the R6.

Yes, a full frame R6 would be the better low light camera. But it's also $1000 more expensive AND will require full frame lenses.

R7 body only... $1499.  R7 with RF 18-150mm kit lens... $1899.

R6 body only... $2499.  T6 w/RF 24-105mm STM lens... $2799 or w/24-105mm f/4L USM lens... $3599.

Frankly, if you have only kit lenses with your 1300D you need to budget to replace those too, regardless of the camera you choose. The $1000 lower price of the R7 would be a big help doing that! While the 1300D's kit lenses can be adapted for use on the R7 mirrorless camera (Canon EF/EF-S to RF adapter: $100), the lenses bundled with the entry level models like your 1300D are not ideal for the higher resolution (less forgiving) R7. Usually the 1300D would come with EF-S 18-55mm IS "II" and EF 75-300mm III. That 18-55mm is okay optically... but has slower micro motor focus drive. An STM or USM lens will focus a lot faster (and quieter, more accurately). The EF 75-300mm III is Canon's cheapest telephoto zoom... and it shows. It has slow micro motor focusing, lacks image stabilization and, frankly, doesn't have very good images quality, especially out at the telephoto end. If you bought better lenses for use on your 1300D, you might be in good shape. But if you got the kit lens (18-55) or the two-lens kit (18-55 and 75-300), you really need to plan to replace them.

You didn't indicate what you shoot. But another approach to low light shooting is "faster" lenses... lenses with larger maximum apertures. The kit lenses are f/3.5-5.6 or f/4.5-5.6. Pretty dark! There are faster... and reasonably affordable lenses. Some examples are the RF 16mm f/2.8, 24mm f/1.8, RF 35mm f/1.8, RF 50mm f/1.8 and RF 85mm f/2. More powerful telephoto lenses with large apertures get very expensive... not to mention big and heavy. But some f/4 lenses might be within reach, even if it means adapting EF lenses. The EF 70-200mm f/4 and EF 300mm f/4 lenses are excellent... and a full stop faster than f/5.6 (in case you don't know, one stop larger = double the light).

The R7 or R6 cameras are both able to autofocus in much lower light conditions than your DSLR. Your 1300D probably can't focus much below 0 EV or -1 EV. Canon claims the R7 AF system is good to -5 EV and the R6's can still focus at -6.5 EV. Those are "dim moonlight" or "starlight". Also the electronic viewfinders of these mirrorless cameras can brighten up the scene so you can see what you're shooting, when you enable "exposure simulation". Of course, at these low light levels you'll struggle to get a shot even with fast lenses and high usable ISOs. 

There also are other ways to make high ISOs usable... shoot RAW and post-process properly. Canon's Digital Photo Pro software comes free with the camera and is able to do a great job of noise reduction. However, it's somewhat clunky if you'll be doing a lot of image editing. Unfortunately, Adobe's noise reduction doesn't seem to work well with recent Canon cameras. But there are alternatives... Topaz DeNoise AI is quite good. DXO PureRaw seems even better! I've seen incredible R7 images shot at ISO 12800 and run through DXO.

Good luck shopping!

***********


Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7DII (x2), 7D(x2) some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & ZENFOLIO 

I love this post!
I personally started off taking the conditions of the original post as the basis of the context within which this discussion was formed.  What I like about this is that Alan has presented a different view, based not on an absolute statement, but on a discourse that is based on a proposition that is anchored on logic, and supported by research and factual material that leads us to his conclusion.   I totally respect this approach.


cheers, TREVOR

Before you ask us, have you looked in the manual or on the Canon Support Site?
"All the beauty of life is made up of light and shadow", Leo Tolstoy;
"Skill in photography is acquired by practice and not by purchase" Percy W. Harris
"

Well, thank you Trevor! Just tryin' to help!

Actually I came across something a little while ago that might further help the original poster.

The OP was concerned about the high MP count of the R7 and how it would handle high ISO noise. Another possibility we didn't discuss is the Canon R10... It's APS-C like the 1300D and R7, but with 24MP is not as extreme an increase as the R7 (32.5MP). At under $1000 it would even leave more $ to put toward lens upgrades, if needed!

The reason I bring up the R10, which I have not used personally, is because sometime yesterday Wild Alaska on YouTube posted a video discussing the high ISO capabilities of the camera. He had done the same with the R7 and R5 cameras previously. Now he's been putting an R10 through its paces and this new video about the high ISO capabilities includes lots of sample wildlife images and potentially helpful commentary.

He also made certain comments I found interesting... Talking about the importance of at least some good light on the subject and the idea of "good noise". That's something I hadn't put a name to but had noticed with more recent Canon models. Even though there is noise in high ISO images, it is more akin to "film grain" that I saw many years ago before I shot digital, and isn't anywhere near as objectionable as the multi-colored noise of earlier digital cameras.

Let me show you an example. Below is a shot I took as a test with one of my Canon 7D Mark II when I first got them, just to see how they did at high ISO. This was shot at ISO 16000 (yes, 16 thousand... not 1600). Lens was my EF 100-400mm "II" at 158mm and f/5 (wide open), hand held at 1/125. Subject is my poor cat, who serves as a test subject a lot. Lighting is minimal... a window without direct sunlight about 6 feet to the right and even further away a single 60 watt light bulb. No flash. First image is the largely uncropped image with default level of noise reduction converting the RAW in Lightroom. The only other tweaks I made to the image were to add contrast because the dynamic range got "pinched" a bit, as can be expected at very high ISO (this illustrates image illustrates how that can be corrected to bring back much of the shadow and highlight detail). 2nd example is an extreme crop from the same image to show that, yes, there is noise. But in my opinion it is what Wild Alaska is calling "good noise".

25860530783_836aa9b12f_o.jpg25860527623_bff29039c5_o.jpg

Please ignore the watermark on the above images. I no longer work with Exposure Manager. They went out of business (owing me a fairly large sum of money, I might add!).

Also keep in mind above shots were done with a now eight year old camera. The 7D Mark II was introduced in 2014. While the 7D Mark II has a generation newer sensor and two generation newer processor than your 1300D, the R7 and R10 both are brand new models, released just a few months ago, with even newer sensors and processors! Your 1300D uses a Digic 4 processor, while the R7 and R10 both use five generation newer Digic X (Canon skipped over Digic 9 for some reason, going from Digic 8 to the current Digic X). Processor power and programming effect high ISO performance significantly.

Regarding the R10... Of course, as you might expect with a less expensive camera you give up some things, comparing the R10 to the R7. As mentioned, it's 24MP instead of 32.5MP. it also doesn't have in-body-image-stabilization (like the R7 and R5 have). And it has a single memory card slot instead of dual slots in the R7. And the R10 has a 1/4000 top shutter speed (vs 1/8000 in R7). The R10 also uses a smaller battery which gives fewer shots per charge than the R7.

What's amazing though is the ways in which the more entry-level R10 matches the R7! Both cameras use essentially the same ultra high performance AF system (similar to the top of the line, $6000 R3's!). I think it's fair to say that the "smart" AF systems of these latest mirrorless cameras are game changing for anyone shooting active subjects like sports and wildlife. They can not only track faces, they can focus on vehicles and eyes! Once you learn to use it, either of these cameras will simply blow away the rather antiquated AF system you use now. Both cameras can take 15 shots per second with their mechanical shutter. With their electronics shutters the R10 is a little slower, but still manages a very respectable 23 frames/sec. compared to the R7's 30 frames/sec. 

The R10 doesn't have the same level of sealing for dust and weather resistance and someone told me it doesn't close it's shutter during lens changes, the way the R7 does to protect the sensor from dust. The R10 also uses a slightly lower resolution rear LCD screen. But that rear LCD is a fully articulated Touch Screen on both cameras. The R10's viewfinder has the same resolution as the R7, but it doesn't have the same level of magnification, so is smaller. (If possible, check the R10's viewfinder out in store because some people feel it's too small, especially if they wear glasses while shooting... but it might be fine for you if you are accustomed to 1300D's.)

The R10 has a built-in, pop-up flash, which the R7 and R6 both lack. (I nearly forgot, because I never use built-in flash: Too weak, too prone to red-eye and too much drain on the camera's power supply.)

The Photons to Photos website I linked in my earlier response for comparison doesn't help us with the R10 because they haven't tested it yet. Go search for "Wild Alaska Canon R10 ISO" on YouTube if you want to see how the camera handles high ISOs in real life. You also can see how it compares with the R7 in some of his earlier videos, if you wish. (Note that R7's higher MP makes for more "croppable" images.) I don't believe he has used the R6, but he has used the R5 quite a bit. And, by the way, he makes regular use of DXO PureRaw for all his images. You can find his and other peoples' examples of how well that works on YouTube, if considering it.

Cheers!

***********


Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7DII (x2), 7D(x2) some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & ZENFOLIO 

 

 

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