Is Mark 4 focus system inferior FOR STREET PHOTOGRAPHY to the Mark 3?

[Streker26]

I have upgraded to the Mark 4 from the Mark 3. I do street photography of people. It seems that the Mark 4 works in a very, very different fashion then the Mark 3 when it comes to autofocus. I have tried every single focus setting or combination of settings but I continue to have problems. I am using exclusively a 50mm 1.4 USM lens as I did on the Mark 3 by the way. So it seems like the Mark 4 takes longer to focus. It sometimes hunts. The shutter button as well is not as responsive. But the biggest problem that is driving me up the wall is very often the camera will focus on the background to the exclusion of foreground subjects. And I don't just mean small figures in the foreground but even when I have a person filling one third of the frame in the center of the field! It is weird because this is not always the case but it is often the case. It is especially bad when I shoot fast. If I am slow and deliberate it is less often a problem. But the thing is that this was NEVER an issue with the Mark 3 for me. So I would love to know what settings people recommend as best to quickly catch in focus a a foreground figure in priority over background subjects. And also if others have had similar issues with this camera in relation to it's predecessor. Thanks

[Waddizzle]

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@Streker26 wrote:

I have only ever used a 50mm prime since I was a little boy. I like the "normal" look of the field of vision. Still I am unhappy with Canons 50mm 1.4. It would be nice if they updated this lens finally. There is the new cheapo 1.8 they came out with and some say it is faster but it is priced so low one has to doubt the quality of the optics. The L series 50 is too big and heavy for my purposes so I am stuck. I actually went out a bought another new 1.4 I was so frustrated with this Mark 4 focus problem and I thought my old 50 might be defective. But it is something else going on...

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The new “nifty fifty”, EF 50mm f/1.8 STM,  outperforms the older EF 50mm f/1.4 USM, IMHO.  It is a real steal.

As others have pointed out, I think your problems are 100% your AF mode selection and the lens choice.  If you were successful with the 5D3 using AI Focus mode, then I am going to scratch my head in amazement.  I do not know what behaviors AI Servo uses in AI Focus mode, but it is a safe bet that it does not wait for a focus lock before firing the shutter.

Again, the simplest way is One Shot focusing mode, and Single Shot drive mode, with the center point manual selected.  AF point coverage is actually slightly larger than the little squares you see in the viewfinder.  If you want to activate AF assist points, then go for it.  With One Shot mode, you can get a confirmation beep when focus locks.  You can also have the locked AF point highlight itself.

Using AI Servo requires a bit more thought and planning besides simply changing the focus mode.  The camera does not emit a beep for focus lock.  It is up to you to understand what the camera is doing.  There are subtle focus behaviors to consider, and they extend beyond the Case settings.  The Case settings only control tracking behavior, not the actual focusing.  

Look in the AF2 menu to set the Image Priority for AI Servo mode to Focus Priority.  There are two settings, 1st Image and 2nd Image.  The 2nd Image setting only applies when the camera is in Continuous drive mode.  It is not clear if the 1st Image setting applies in One Shot mode.  Judging from the name, I would think it only applies to Continuous drive mode, but I do seem to get sharper photos in One Shot mode with it set to Focus Priority.  It is not clear when this setting applies.

[TTMartin]

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@Waddizzle wrote:

 

Using AI Servo requires a bit more thought and planning besides simply changing the focus mode.  The camera does not emit a beep for focus lock.  It is up to you to understand what the camera is doing.  There are subtle focus behaviors to consider, and they extend beyond the Case settings.  The Case settings only control tracking behavior, not the actual focusing.  

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The case settings also control if the camera fires the shutter without obtaining focus or only after obtaining focus. If you didn't have this set properly it is no wonder you prefer One Shot over AIServo. I have my camera set up to not fire the shutter in AIServo, unless the camera has achieved focus. When set up like that it actually requires less thought than One Shot, because One Shot does not adjust the focus when your subject moves (no tracking) so you have to repeatedly focus on a moving subject or use a huge depth of field. 

[Waddizzle]

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The case settings also control if the camera fires the shutter without obtaining focus or only after obtaining focus. If you didn't have this set properly it is no wonder you prefer One Shot over AIServo. . 

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No, it doesn’t.  The Case setting in your 7D2 only allows you to adjust three behaviors.  The 5D4 is similar.

• Tracking Sensitivity
• Accel/DecelTracking
• AF pt Auto Switching

Shutter control is not set in the Case settings.  The setting is called Image Priority, and it is set in the AF2 menu.

You are making false assumptions about my shooting preferences.  What I might advise is not what I might do in the same situation.  The advice that I give is the “best fit” to the person I am advising, not what I would do.  

[TCampbell]

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@Waddizzle wrote:

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The case settings also control if the camera fires the shutter without obtaining focus or only after obtaining focus. If you didn't have this set properly it is no wonder you prefer One Shot over AIServo. . 

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No, it doesn’t.  The Case setting in your 7D2 only allows you to adjust three behaviors.  The 5D4 is similar.

• Tracking Sensitivity
• Accel/DecelTracking
• AF pt Auto Switching

Shutter control is not set in the Case settings.  The setting is called Image Priority, and it is set in the AF2 menu.

You are making false assumptions about my shooting preferences.  What I might advise is not what I might do in the same situation.  The advice that I give is the “best fit” to the person I am advising, not what I would do.  

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It’s not in the “case” settings, per se... but there’s a setting for shooting in burst mode as to whether 1st frame should prioritize focus, release, or blend a bit of both... and another setting for the subsequent frames priority.  If you push it to prioritize focus, it does slightly drop the shutter speed on bursts.  This is mostly a consideration for those doing action photography.

As for the OP’s original question... I still own both bodies.  The focus system is very similar on both but the 5D IV is a bit more advanced than the III and I find it to be better and more reponsive.  

You do have to spend time learning the system.

I avoid the use of AI Focus.  I use “One Shot” when I’m shooting non-moving subjects.  I use “AI Servo” when shooting moving subjects.  “AI Focus” is sort of an auto-decide mode where the camera tries to work out which behavior to use, but it’s better to set the mode if you know what to expect.

[TTMartin]

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 wrote:

What I might advise is not what I might do in the same situation.  The advice that I give is the “best fit” to the person I am advising, not what I would do.  

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No, you have repeatedly advised people to only use One Shot even for moving subjects, this is BAD advice plain and simple. It is how you do it, and not what is the 'best fit' for the OP asking the question. 

One Shot should be used for subjects that will not move. i.e. posed portraits, buildings, still lifes, landscapes, etc.

AIServo should be used for moving subjects or subjects that MAY move. i.e. candid photos, wildlife, sports, etc

And since someone always wants to point out AIServo should also be used if the camera is moving releative to the subject. 

AIFocus should not be used.

I'd like to point out that Canon Explorer of Light Emeritus Art Morris no longer uses Back Button Focus, but, instead is using the AF ON, reprogrammed to AF OFF, like I have suggested a number of times. 

In the blog explaining why Art states that he used the Canon EOS 7D Mk II, Canon EOS 5D Mark IV and the Canon EOS-1D X Mark II. 

From Art's Birds as Art blog:

On all three of my camera bodies, I have assigned AF lock to the AF-On button. So if I am using shutter button AI Servo AF — as I now do 98% of the time — and need to focus on a subject in the corner of the frame, I acquire focus with the shutter button and then reach around the corner and press and hold the AF-On button. This locks the focus and essentially gives me the advantages of using rear focus (without ever having to change any of my settings). Do understand that this technique works best with your rig on a tripod or at least when your gear is well-supported by a railing or as a result of your using the knee-pod technique. If you are straight out hand holding there is a risk that even your tiniest movement will throw off the focus. The same of course is true whenever you are using either One-Shot AF or rear button focus 

Why I Rarely Use Back Button Focus Anymore ...

FWIW, in January 2018 Art announced that he is now using Nikon gear.

Rudy Winston has done an updated AF video specific to the AF Cases on the 7D Mk II. 

Controlling AI Servo AF to track your moving subjects with the Canon EOS 7D Mark II

[Waddizzle]

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@Waddizzle wrote:

One Shot mode can be used for anything, even action sports, with a fast enough shutter and the proper depth of field.

AI Servo mode is not used for “moving” subjects, per se.  Lenses have a plane of perfect focus.  Depending upon your aperture setting, there is some distance behind and in front of the focus plane where subjects are in “acceptable” focus.  This is called DOF.  

AI Servo mode is [used to] track subjects whose distance to the camera is changing.  As the distance to the subject changes, the subject can move away from the focused plane, and out of the DOF.  AI Servo is used to adjust the focusing distance to the subject, as the subject moves away or towards the camera, to keep the subject within an acceptable DOF, if not in perfect focus.

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[Streker26]

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@TCampbell wrote:

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@Waddizzle wrote:

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The case settings also control if the camera fires the shutter without obtaining focus or only after obtaining focus. If you didn't have this set properly it is no wonder you prefer One Shot over AIServo. . 

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No, it doesn’t.  The Case setting in your 7D2 only allows you to adjust three behaviors.  The 5D4 is similar.

• Tracking Sensitivity
• Accel/DecelTracking
• AF pt Auto Switching

Shutter control is not set in the Case settings.  The setting is called Image Priority, and it is set in the AF2 menu.

You are making false assumptions about my shooting preferences.  What I might advise is not what I might do in the same situation.  The advice that I give is the “best fit” to the person I am advising, not what I would do.  

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It’s not in the “case” settings, per se... but there’s a setting for shooting in burst mode as to whether 1st frame should prioritize focus, release, or blend a bit of both... and another setting for the subsequent frames priority.  If you push it to prioritize focus, it does slightly drop the shutter speed on bursts.  This is mostly a consideration for those doing action photography.

As for the OP’s original question... I still own both bodies.  The focus system is very similar on both but the 5D IV is a bit more advanced than the III and I find it to be better and more reponsive.  

You do have to spend time learning the system.

I avoid the use of AI Focus.  I use “One Shot” when I’m shooting non-moving subjects.  I use “AI Servo” when shooting moving subjects.  “AI Focus” is sort of an auto-decide mode where the camera tries to work out which behavior to use, but it’s better to set the mode if you know what to expect.

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Hi, I am curious to define more clearly what is meant by "moving subjects" Are you saying that Servo is mostly appropriate for "multiple shots" of a single moving subject? What about when the subject is still (or perhaps walking slowly) but YOU are moving quickly past the subject and do a fast grab shot? I ask because this is generally how I work. I rarely if ever take more then one frame of a subject moving or still but "I" am moving quickly myself when I take the picture so that the subject does not see me or take offense. So in this circumstance would you recommend still using Servo or One Shot? Thanks....

[Streker26]

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@TTMartin wrote:

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@Waddizzle wrote:

 

Using AI Servo requires a bit more thought and planning besides simply changing the focus mode.  The camera does not emit a beep for focus lock.  It is up to you to understand what the camera is doing.  There are subtle focus behaviors to consider, and they extend beyond the Case settings.  The Case settings only control tracking behavior, not the actual focusing.  

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The case settings also control if the camera fires the shutter without obtaining focus or only after obtaining focus. If you didn't have this set properly it is no wonder you prefer One Shot over AIServo. I have my camera set up to not fire the shutter in AIServo, unless the camera has achieved focus. When set up like that it actually requires less thought than One Shot, because One Shot does not adjust the focus when your subject moves (no tracking) so you have to repeatedly focus on a moving subject or use a huge depth of field. 

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@TTMartin wrote:

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@Waddizzle wrote:

 

Using AI Servo requires a bit more thought and planning besides simply changing the focus mode.  The camera does not emit a beep for focus lock.  It is up to you to understand what the camera is doing.  There are subtle focus behaviors to consider, and they extend beyond the Case settings.  The Case settings only control tracking behavior, not the actual focusing.  

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The case settings also control if the camera fires the shutter without obtaining focus or only after obtaining focus. If you didn't have this set properly it is no wonder you prefer One Shot over AIServo. I have my camera set up to not fire the shutter in AIServo, unless the camera has achieved focus. When set up like that it actually requires less thought than One Shot, because One Shot does not adjust the focus when your subject moves (no tracking) so you have to repeatedly focus on a moving subject or use a huge depth of field. 

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I am a little confused. You've made a good argument to use Servo but in order to do so with focus priority one must choose a certain case setting? I don't have my camera in front of me but I thought that was another menu. What case setting do you use when in Servo to not fire the shutter in AIServo unless the camera focus is acheived?

[Streker26]

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@Waddizzle wrote:

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@Waddizzle wrote:

One Shot mode can be used for anything, even action sports, with a fast enough shutter and the proper depth of field.

AI Servo mode is not used for “moving” subjects, per se.  Lenses have a plane of perfect focus.  Depending upon your aperture setting, there is some distance behind and in front of the focus plane where subjects are in “acceptable” focus.  This is called DOF.  

AI Servo mode is [used to] track subjects whose distance to the camera is changing.  As the distance to the subject changes, the subject can move away from the focused plane, and out of the DOF.  AI Servo is used to adjust the focusing distance to the subject, as the subject moves away or towards the camera, to keep the subject within an acceptable DOF, if not in perfect focus.

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OK... but for my purposes of quickly taking pictures of people in the street I generally am myself moving past them or towards them. I rarely stand still since I will be spotted by my subject. The subject themself can equally well be walking by or standing still but I am nearly always in some sort of motion. I do momentarily pause of course to take the shot but it is only for a second as I move on. So in this manner might not AIServo in fact serve me better or do you still feel One Shot is the way to go? Thanks again for your patience while I try to sort out the pros and cons of this...

[ebiggs1]

"What case setting do you use when in Servo to not fire the shutter in AIServo unless the camera focus is acheived?"

No case setting.  Shutter button 1/2 way down until you see a or several red square(s). Shutter button fully depressed.  Easy.

AI-Servo is so good on these newer models I use it more and more.