5DSr + Otus 85 NOT SHARP, Live View Problem - NOT HAPPY WITH CANON!

[charleshansen]

Let me 1st preface with saying about 10 posts down from this one, was my original from last week. Many people contributed help, for which I'm grateful. I still have the problem. I also want to say the 5DSr is new - less than 300 exposures on it. I have many Canon lenses, with many being "L". I am a member of Canon Pro Services, CPS. Using the 5DSr + the Zeiss OTUS 85mm, there's $9000 invested, with no satisfaction. Let me also add that for the 1st time since I'm 18, and that's over 40 yrs ago, I have ventured outside of the Canon system and bought a Fujifilm X-T2 + their 56mm 1.2, and I am in all ways astounded at what else apparently is out there. Quality, performance, functionality - superb. The best money and satisfaction right out of the box (at 1/3 the money of the Canon + Otus) I have ever spent in photography. And the sharpest images I have ever taken. Enough of that, because I think I'm finished with the Canon ride. 

To recap the problem - when using Live View for any lens attached, Canon or Zeiss, the lens automatically stops-down to say 5 or 5.6 or thereabouts. It can be stopped. When the picture is snapped, the lens opens up to whatever I set, say 1.4, makes the exposure, and the  returns to a stopped-down position - cannot be averted in ANY way. Exposure simulation enable, disable, or "during" makes no difference. What brought my attention to this was trying to discover why images viewed at 16X during live-liew, looking razor, razor sharp on the LCD using "the finest lens in photography", the Otus 85mm, result in soft, out-of-focus throwaways every time, regardless of lens. I made the posting last week addressing this problem.

People contributed lots of input - all to no avail. I called CPS phone tech support, and ABSOLUTELY no help there. I attended the Photo Expo show yesterday in NYC, spoke to the Canon techs at their booth + the techs they had there at the CPS booth - and no help there. Nobody's even really sure what the functionality is supposed to be. The only real help, or at least corroboration was had at the Zeiss booth, where a rep mounted the Otus 85 on a 5DSr, in Live-View, and it performed as it should - lens stayed wide open, until the exposure was made. So, my original suspician that there was something wrong with the camera seems true. Luckily is well within warranty, so Canon will be getting it back.

The reason I'm so annoyed at this is because I believe Canon has become the Microsoft of the photo world. They find it hard to support what they're putting out. They'd rather put customers through the ringer, than admit a problem. I did other searches..for the last 4 yrs or so, many people have had issues with Canon DSLR live-view. Now whether it's a defect 100% of the time, is probably not true either, but apparently either the systems are not designed/implemented well, or they can't be explained well enough to operate. People having real frustrations after spending good money with live-view systems either improperly designed or too flaky to operate without lots of heartache. No one on this board will accuse Canon of being the industry's most innovative company, but Canon will have to accept the fact they're the largest and are getting sloppy and complacent. I dread sending this Camera back, as I've read other such horror stories. They don't listen to their customers. And since the 5DS series has been released - NO firmware updates either.

If you're happy in all ways in the Canon eco-system, God bless you - but I believe it's the end of the road for me with Canon.

(And I won't even talk about waiting 4 years for the Mark III's successor, only to see a half-hearted attempt at what should have been a winner)

[charleshansen]

I'm photographing high-precision laser-cut parts. The emphasis of the shot is not the part, but the precision of the laser'd edge. I want my image shot at f1.4 for a wafer DOF. The camera (in live view) is reacting to the set lighting, instead of my camera setting. It's forcing me to "press the DOF button" to OPEN the lens and focus. Seems a bit backward, eh?

[charleshansen]

That's exactly the problem, what you said. Live View is NOT showing exactly what will be taken. What will be taken is f1.4(AV); what it's using is 5.6...
Or if you have 2 or 3 hot lights on set, could be even f9 or 11, or higher - see the problem? Innacurate focusing vis a vis DOF due to "live view". Anyway, all Canon official folk said it's not supposed to be doing that - honest, they said that. Zeiss says it's normal for EOS bodies. I trust Zeiss. Even you're getting the same result as me and Zeiss!

[kvbarkley]

There might be some physics going on here. The live view is trying to get a viewable image with a lot of light. At 1.4 it might be too washed out. Have you tried an ND filter?

[Waddizzle]

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@kvbarkley wrote:

There might be some physics going on here. The live view is trying to get a viewable image with a lot of light. At 1.4 it might be too washed out. Have you tried an ND filter?

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It seems like something "automatic" is kicking in.  It could be White Balance, Lighting Optimizer, Noise Reduction, who knows.

[charleshansen]

Whatever the algorithm is, if there is one, no one at Canon has any idea, and that's unacceptable to pros who use their equipment, and anyone wanting to know exactly how their equipment operates.
As far as the LCD being overwhelmed with light - not the case. There is an op-amp circuit that regulates brightness, automatically or manually over a very wide range.

[jrhoffman75]

I ran an experiment with 1D Mark IV and Canon 85mm f/1.8. Av set at f/1.8 and ISO 100.

LiveView mode.

Kept increasing light intensity. Looked into lens. Lens stayed at f/1.8 until light got so bright that I was overexposed at 1/8000 of a second (8000 flashing). In that condition lens did stop down slightly. As soon as I reduced light intensity such that 8000 wasn't flashing lens opened back up to f/1.8.

By varying Av and looking into lens I would judge the stop down to be about f/2.2.

May or may not be relative to your experience.

You have a third-party lens and a brand new camera model; could that possibly be the problem?

[RobertTheFat]

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@jrhoffman75 wrote:

I ran an experiment with 1D Mark IV and Canon 85mm f/1.8. Av set at f/1.8 and ISO 100.

LiveView mode.

Kept increasing light intensity. Looked into lens. Lens stayed at f/1.8 until light got so bright that I was overexposed at 1/8000 of a second (8000 flashing). In that condition lens did stop down slightly. As soon as I reduced light intensity such that 8000 wasn't flashing lens opened back up to f/1.8.

By varying Av and looking into lens I would judge the stop down to be about f/2.2.

May or may not be relative to your experience.

You have a third-party lens and a brand new camera model; could that possibly be the problem?

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Do you suppose it reaches a point at which it has to stop down to avoid damaging the sensor?

[docusync]

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@RobertTheFat wrote:

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@jrhoffman75 wrote:

I ran an experiment with 1D Mark IV and Canon 85mm f/1.8. Av set at f/1.8 and ISO 100.

LiveView mode.

Kept increasing light intensity. Looked into lens. Lens stayed at f/1.8 until light got so bright that I was overexposed at 1/8000 of a second (8000 flashing). In that condition lens did stop down slightly. As soon as I reduced light intensity such that 8000 wasn't flashing lens opened back up to f/1.8.

By varying Av and looking into lens I would judge the stop down to be about f/2.2.

May or may not be relative to your experience.

You have a third-party lens and a brand new camera model; could that possibly be the problem?

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Do you suppose it reaches a point at which it has to stop down to avoid damaging the sensor?

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@I tried mine under fluorescent lamps in the evening, so the lens had never close the apperture. But if the light is so bright so the camera has to stop down, would be the image severly overexposed @ f/1.4? Then the whole complain doesn't make much sense?

[RobertTheFat]

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@docusync wrote:

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@RobertTheFat wrote:

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@jrhoffman75 wrote:

I ran an experiment with 1D Mark IV and Canon 85mm f/1.8. Av set at f/1.8 and ISO 100.

LiveView mode.

Kept increasing light intensity. Looked into lens. Lens stayed at f/1.8 until light got so bright that I was overexposed at 1/8000 of a second (8000 flashing). In that condition lens did stop down slightly. As soon as I reduced light intensity such that 8000 wasn't flashing lens opened back up to f/1.8.

By varying Av and looking into lens I would judge the stop down to be about f/2.2.

May or may not be relative to your experience.

You have a third-party lens and a brand new camera model; could that possibly be the problem?

---

Do you suppose it reaches a point at which it has to stop down to avoid damaging the sensor?

---

@I tried mine under fluorescent lamps in the evening, so the lens had never close the apperture. But if the light is so bright so the camera has to stop down, would be the image severly overexposed @ f/1.4? Then the whole complain doesn't make much sense?

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As I understand it, the complaint wasn't that the lens stopped down during the shot, but that it stopped down during the display of the live view image, making it difficult to focus. A burst of light, no matter how bright, for the length of a normal exposure isn't going to overheat the sensor. But continuous exposure to light that bright conceivably might. So my thought was that the stop-down might be a defense mechanism allowing the camera to protect the sensor during live view.

Note that an arguably similar defense mechanish can come into play while shooting video. Video recording stops if the sensor starts to overheat.

[docusync]

It makes sense.