Need pro advice on upgrade

[mstu33]

The time is now. I have the approval to make a camera/lens purchase for my department at work. I work as Director of Marketing & Communications at an independent school. I have $4,800 for both a camera and lenses. What combination would you recommend? I am excited to upgrade from the T3i I have been using. I have rented both the 80D and the 5D Mark IV. 

[ebiggs1]

"EOS 6D Mk II,

EF 70–200mm f/2.8L IS III USM,

EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM"

This is the kit you need. Perhaps you could buy just the EOS 6D Mk II  and EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM first off.  Later on get the EF 70–200mm f/2.8L IS III USM.  Forget a flash as it is the last thing to never needed item.

If you just have to save money look at the 80D with the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM and the EF 70–200mm f/2.8L IS III USM.

[TCampbell]

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@ebiggs1 wrote:

"EOS 6D Mk II,

EF 70–200mm f/2.8L IS III USM,

EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM"

This is the kit you need. Perhaps you could buy just the EOS 6D Mk II  and EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM first off.  Later on get the EF 70–200mm f/2.8L IS III USM.  Forget a flash as it is the last thing to never needed item.

If you just have to save money look at the 80D with the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM and the EF 70–200mm f/2.8L IS III USM.

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Ernie is always trying to go against the grain.  I wouldn’t want to do indoor / dim-lighting shots without a flash if I wanted good results.  You can crank up the ISO... if you want noisy results.

In the pecking order of what makes a good photo it’s:

#1 Your skill

#2 Lighing

#3 Lens

#4 Camera body

Lighting makes a bigger difference than the lens in terms of photographic results. 

My two most-used lenses for indoor concert events are my 70-200 f/2.8 and my 135mm f/2.  I don’t use the 24-70 f/2.8 very often for these events because it would require being too close to the stage.  (I use the 70-200 far more than any other lens in my bag.)

There’s also the question of f/2.8 depth of field... if shooting just one subject it’s great.   If shooting a group, you can have people falling out of focus... at which point you’re back to f/4 ... or f/5.6... and lower light... and thinking about how nice it would be to have a flash.

[ebiggs1]

"Ernie is always trying to go against the grain"

Tim, my friend, do you or have you ever made your living with a camera?  Obvious things are usually obvious.

"In the pecking order of what makes a good photo it’s:

#1 Your skill

#2 Lighing

#3 Lens

#4 Camera body"

Not even in the ball park of what it takes to makes a great photo.  Like I like to say, photography is 1/2 camera/gear, 1/2 you and 1/2 post editor.  If you don't understand that seeming contradiction, I can understand but it is what it takes.

[TCampbell]

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@ebiggs1 wrote:

"Ernie is always trying to go against the grain"

Tim, my friend, do you or have you ever made your living with a camera?  Obvious things are usually obvious.

"In the pecking order of what makes a good photo it’s:

#1 Your skill

#2 Lighing

#3 Lens

#4 Camera body"

Not even in the ball park of what it takes to makes a great photo.  Like I like to say, photography is 1/2 camera/gear, 1/2 you and 1/2 post editor.  If you don't understand that seeming contradiction, I can understand but it is what it takes.

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Ernie, that’s three halves and a bit light on details (but you remembered that there should be a camera involved and there should be someone to push buttons on the camera so maybe we give you partial credit).  Also, it implies some of the most well-known photographers in history must not know what they’re doing if they achieved notoriety before post editors were invented.

You ramble on about stuff you don’t seem to understand ... while the rest of the industry (who has done their homework) disagrees with you.  If you want to be right Ernie, you’re going to need to do your homework so you can actually be right. 

Good photos have good lighting.  Good lighting has good shadows.  If a photographer wants control over that (and a good photographer does), then they’ll use lighting modifiers and they’ll use supplemental lighting.

Good photographers even use flash outdoors on sunny days.  That may come as a complete surprise to you and you may not understand why.  Rather than me explain why ... maybe you can research why they might do that. 

Do you want me to supply a reading list?

[ebiggs1]

Good lord the King of 'ramble' said this?  "You ramble on about stuff you don’t seem to understand ... "  

I would be surprised if I added up a months worth of replies of mine to just one of yours you would win the ramble contest.

"while the rest of the industry (who has done their homework) disagrees with you."  Really, my friend, after 40 years of dealing with and producing for the industry in a major worldwide company.  Well I let that speak for itself.  BTW, do you have such a back ground?  No I didn't think so.

Now do you truly think the old timers, of which I am one, didn't have a post editor?  Yeah, my friend, it may not have been PS but we always had something even if it was just kitchen spoon to use as a dodge tool. The fact three halves don't add up in your world shows the fact that any one of them can be the most important.  Rarely will it be 1/3, 1/3 and 1/3 and work but it could. Usually one part excels over the other two.

"Good photographers even use flash outdoors on sunny days"

And, good photographers don't. So what? If a person is limited in budget, as the OP indicated, and something has to be cut out, a flash is certainly on the top of the list.

Each of us is entitled to our opinion Tim. So, flash away to your hearts content.

[shadowsports]

Guys,

Wealth of knowledge on this thread.  Can we keep it civil and stay on topic.

Guy wants to spend upwards of $4500

mstu33...  Where does a Director of Market and Communication take the majority of his/her pictures?  Indoors / outdoors, both?

Are the subjects mostly still or do you have to catch action?

Everyone here has made some good points about what you can spend your money on.  You said you rented an 80D and a 5D4.  Which did you like better.  Did the 5D4 feel like overkill?  Or were you snapping away going holy $h()t I'm taking some great pictures.  The 80D is a enthusiast grade camera.  The 5D4 is pro.  Which are you? 

The 80D has an articulating screen.  Is this important to you?  It is for me...  so no 5D4.  I'm suffering though life with my 6D2 and loving every minute of it. 

[TCampbell]

Going back through the thread and I missed this gem...

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@ebiggs1

 wrote:

"while the rest of the industry (who has done their homework) disagrees with you."  Really, my friend, after 40 years of dealing with and producing for the industry in a major worldwide company.  Well I let that speak for itself.  BTW, do you have such a back ground?  No I didn't think so.

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Ernie,  before you try to throw "40 years" of industry experience around... let's not forget you were the one who wanted to challenge poeple on lens comparisons so you took photos of a coffee cup with two different lenses and didn't focus in the same spot/distance twice (rending the photos unusable for purposes of comparison).  

When this problem was pointed out to you... rather than owning the error and correcting it, you actually tried to defend it claiming these "real world" photos are a better example of how the lenses perform.    This is not the behavior of a rational or experienced photographer.

There is a difference between "40 years experience" and "1 year experience repeated 40 times".  

You're trying to use the "argument from authority" fallacy.  If a person is actually correct, they would be able to articulate why ... using well-reasoned arguments.  They don't need to make claims to credentials.

The better discussion would be to describe the pros & cons of the equipment rather than just dismiss it out of hand.

It's one thing to explain why you don't use a flash.  It's quite another to insist that a flash is a waste with "Forget a flash as it is the last thing to never needed item."

When I read sentences like that, what I translate this to mean is "I do not know how to use flash effectively."

Nobody always needs a flash... but the opposite is equally true.  I think someone would have a tough time trying to shoot every situation and not ever having a flash available.  There are many times when it is simply the right tool for the job.

If a person does a lot of indoor shooting and/or a lot of evening/night events, then it's a lot easier to make those shots work effectively with a flash AND a bit of understanding of how to use it.

My own experience is based in wedding photography (and using film ... so there's no opportunity to check the results as the images are captured).  This is a type of photography where flash is generally regarded as a requirement (even today with digital cameras, it's still regarded as a required equipment that a wedding photographer must own.)

What I have managed to pick up from your posts ... is that you've developed a way of shooting that works for you but is not grounded in a deep understanding of how the technology works.  You then thrust that upon others as if it's the correct way of doing things... even when the industry disagrees.

[ebiggs1]

" This is not the behavior of a rational or experienced photographer."

I never claimed to be rational, my friend.

"You then thrust that upon others as if it's the correct way of doing things."

There are "others", believe it or not that will disagree with you.  Your comments are insulting and deserve no further reply from me.

[jrhoffman75]

👍

[jrhoffman75]

Putting aside the extra features of the 5D, did you see an advantage of full frame vs crop camera?