5d mark III focusing slowly/etc. in low light wedding receptions

[ejder]

I've been using 5d2s for a long time because I am simply not rich enough (and I don't want the huge body either) to buy 1d-series cameras for work. I've shot about 20 weddings with the 5d3 since I bought it, and I finally sent it in to Canon the other day for an autofocus checkup.

My #1 issue is reception autofocus. My 5d2s beat my 5d3 at reception focusing (with 580EX AF assist always used). They are more reliable for AI servo and faster for one-shot.

My 5d3 struggles to acquire in one-shot, taking probably close to 2 real seconds (it feels like forever) to establish and confirm a lock on a static subject during wedding receptions with lenses like 24L II, 35L, 50L. In contrast, in the exact same lighting conditions and with the same lenses and flash AF assist, my 5d2s all snap right to focus and I click the shutter within about 1 second or less, getting an in-focus image about 90-95% of the time.

With AI servo, the 5d3 is just inferior to my 5d2s in low light. I was hoping, one day, to get a camera that would give me the ability to track subjects well during processionals/grand entrances/reception dances using the outer points, because I'm pretty tired of being stuck with center-point framing for these situations. I thought the 5d3 was supposed to solve that problem, but in fact it took a step backward in low light AI servo accuracy and locking. My 5d2s (center point) both acquire faster and track better in low light than my 5d3 (center point also).

After sending the 5d3 in to get it checked (and so they could charge me $175+), I got a nice copy of the page saying that the camera focus in low light is blah blah etc. etc. use AF assist (which I had noted I did) and the overall feeling was that they were very condescending and disregarding of my equipment issue. To me, a $3500 camera should perform better than a camera that is now worth ~$1300...and so the 5d3 performs arguably better in GOOD light, simply because it has more focus points to choose from which are generally pretty accurate - in GOOD light. However, it performs worse in reception light. Wedding photographers will understand what I mean by reception light.

My 5d2 AI servo is not useless during receptions, but my 5d3 AI servo struggles more in the same reception lighting. My 5d2 one-shot locks quickly and pretty accurately during receptions, while my 5d3 takes significantly longer in one-shot to lock, and sometimes it gives me pretty wild misses, during receptions. Always using AF assist with 580EX, and btw the 5d3 firmware is the latest version (1.2.3 at this time). The camera simply focuses slower during receptions than my 5d2s, and AI servo misses more. 

I also don't like that AF points don't light up before focusing, but this is less important to me than a fast, responsive AF system for wedding receptions. I have had to put away the 5d3 on multiple occasions and bring out a second 5d2 for wedding receptions just so I can get good dancing photos, good speech/toasting photos, etc., before all the key moments went by and ohhhh too late, my focus system didn't lock in time...

I have been having this issue with 5d3 performance since I bought it close to a year ago. I do wedding photography primarily, and I have quite a bit of experience shooting weddings and dealing with the various demands of weddings.

Most of my AF experience is with single point, with only a few experiences using the expansion settings.  I have never had trouble locking or tracking with single point with my 5d2s as long as there was enough light to do it, and being used to that I expected the 5d3 to be able to perform at LEAST comparably.  It does not.

At this point, this critical functional limitation of the 5d3 has left me very dissatisfied with the camera.  I thought upgrades were supposed to do everything just as well or better than the previous version, but this newest camera has shown me that more AF points definitely does NOT mean a better (or even comparable) AF system in every situation.  Clearly something was traded off when they added a ton of cross-type points, like low light acquisition speed and being able to see your AF points illuminate when you start AF.

I've been playing around with Nikon equipment for a while and am beginning to think that is my forced alternative.  I don't like the things I hear about Nikon customer support, and I don't really like the direction they are going with some of their releases or how they handled function issues (focus issues with off-center focus points, oil on sensors, etc.) but Canon isn't innocent of that stuff either.  And if I use an all-Nikon setup then I will have excellent dynamic range at low ISOs as well.  Too bad Nikon doesn't have the glass I like best (35L, 85L, etc.)...but compromises must be made in some direction, and I'm intensely frustrated with Canon's latest cameras' focusing systems in low light.

It's very specific, mind you: Low light performance is inferior to my 5d2s.  In good light, my 5d3 has better AF flexibility for tracking with outer points, and the one-shot focus acquisition is comparable to my 5d2s.

[ejder]

Actually I did say which lenses (24L II, 35L, 50L as primary examples, plus the 85L II for static subjects), and I said which modes (AI servo and One Shot both having different problems).  

As for number of points, I have used the expanded (5 and 9 both) and each time I do that it locks on the wrong target far more often than if I keep it down to a single AF point (not the fine/spot point, but the single point without the smaller square inside). 

And about preset focus acquisition and tracking modes, I have tried each of the presets in original state and have also modified them, but the results are very similar for me each time - many out of focus tracked shots during receptions.  If you were to look at my presets each one would have something altered in the adjustable options, because I have been through MANY different possible options. 

I have now shot over 20 weddings with the 5d3, and though my results have improved a small amount, I have given up expecting any different from the camera in terms of general tracking ability/delays in low light focusing.  I use my 5d2s when I want fast, reliable (albeit center point only) reception focus locking.

I have done a lot of experimenting with the 5d3.  You can say whatever you want about me and I am obviously powerless to stop you, but true experience and fact are all I am going by for my observations.

[TCampbell]

I missed your list of lenses on your first post.

If you haven't already seen this, take a look at page 37:  http://cpn.canon-europe.com/files/product/cameras/eos_5d_mark_iii/EOS_5D_Mark_III_AF_setting_guidebo...

Your lenses are "Group A", but not every point can take advantage of cross-type AF and f/2.8 glass.  There's a column of points in the center which can (excluding top & bottom of the column).  

When you use the 5 and 9 point "expanded AF", the camera is really using the center point of the cluster as the AF point.  The other AF points are being used as "assist" points... they expanded the AF search area to help the camera find contrast if there is not enough contrast in the center point.

There is a "zone" AF which also uses clusters of points... but it's a bit different than the expand area AF or surround area AF.  The "expand" and "surround" really do use the center point, assisted by  the others.  Zone focus allows any of the points in the cluster to be treated as the AF point (the others are not focus-assist points).  It's a bit like using full 61-point auto-selection... except reducing the number  of possible points to just the points in one area.

Since I have both systems, I've tested the cameras in very low light using 600EX-RT speedlites with the focus-assist beam enabled.  Both cameras lock focus very quickly (typically in about 1/4 to perhaps 1/2 second.)  Ultimately the test targets I am using are subjects that offer contrast.  The cameras need something with contrast to lock focus.  Focus on a flat-ish low-contrast target will make any camera struggle.

[ejder]

I always look for high-contrast edges (where suit and undershirt separate, eyes, mouths, etc.).

There have been other people reporting similar results as mine with 5d3s, the general feeling I've gotten is that not all 5d3s are created equal.  Some of them have delays, miss often in the dark, etc.  My 5d3, on its best day, on a TRIPOD (with no movement), with AF assist, with center point or center with expansion, never acquires focus in low light with any of my lenses in under about 0.8-0.9 seconds.  In real world conditions, that gets doubled, tripled, quadrupled (yes, quadrupled) regularly because it's handheld, things are moving, etc.  AI servo just misses completely about 60-70% of the time.  Lighting conditions are 1/100-160, ISO1600, f/1.8ish.  My 5d2s track better (center point) and lock faster in low light.  My results are extremely consistent.  I would not have posted what I did not personally experience, and having used the 5d3 for another 10+ weddings since my first post and seeing the same overall results, I still stand by my experience.

I do suspect not all 5d3s are created equal.

[Yokobash]

Im having the same issue! With my both 5d3 in getting crazy of that for nore than a year now and canon lab also told me the bodies are fine, the thing is with my case, it wasnt like this frin the first day, when i just baught my first 5d3 i adored this camera her performanse regarding AF were amazing! But simething happen someday and since then i cant get it back for how it was, for long time now i have similar expirience to what you describe, really frustrating .;(

[TCampbell]

One other point I failed to mention previously...

When I first started in photography (as an apprentice back in the early 80's) the cameras were manual focus only (auto-focus was practically non-existent) and even still... the lighting in a reception hall was typically very dim.  Focusing was extremely difficult.  We always used flash (absolutely always), often had to preset the focus to a given distance (e.g. 7') with a broad enough DoF that every subject would be in focus.  

Later, we got flash systems that had modeling lamps which made it a lot easier to focus.

But today... you can get Canon Speedlites with focus assist beams built-in.  Both the 600EX-RT flashes will fire a red pattern that the camera can use to lock focus in ANY level of light and it's very fast.

I typically shoot in Av mode but I the camera offers an option to set the shutter speed range when using the flash in Av mode.  The choices are "automatic" (which really uses the range of 1/30th to 1/200th or 1/250th depending ont he capabilities of the camera body) -OR- 1/60th to 1/200th (or 250th if the body can flash sync at that speed), -OR- just lock in at the max shutter flash-sync speed (1/200th or 1/250th depending on the body).    I set mine to use the 1/60th-1/250th range BECAUSE that allows the camera to collect ambient light and gives it permission to go down to 1/60th and I can hand-hold a shot at that speed without worrying about camera motion.  At 1/30th you may get some blur from camera movement.

This gives you the advantage of the focus-assist beam for fast focusing even in complete darkness with the bonus of getting fill-flash + ambient blended light.  It's a fairly high quality result for shooting receptions in extremely challenging light.  

Also... make sure your 5D III is _not_ in spot-focus mode.  I'd suggest using "expanded AF" or "surround AF" mode.

[linbs]

I don't think this is the point. Camera obscura didn't have any focusing at all and no AV mode and people still managed take pictures... We are talking about modern cameras and what they are supposed to do. 5D III obviously failed... I am shooting in low light conditions (concerts, music clubs etc.) where using a flash is not an option, I shot few times with a borrowed D3 (Nikon as you understand) and didn't have a slightest problem at all. With Canon it is a nightmare. I tried all the possible advices and setting variations. It just doesn't do it. At least so far I couldn't find any usefull advice how to do it...

[Waddizzle]

I'd be really curious to know what exposure settings people are trying to use when they experience these issues.

[ebiggs1]

I shot 20+ wedding and am unsatisfied... i shot another 10+ weddings and am still unsatisfied.  

Really?  Why haven't you just bought a Nikon D810?  Seems like a simple reasonable solution.

Me personally I only use 1 series for weddings, now, but in the past I owned and used a the 5D, 5D  Mk II and the Mk III.  I do agree with Tim Campbell, you must know the Mk III insdie and out. It is so complicated.

I will say when I got the 5D Mk III, I almost never used a flash. 

[marcosphoto]

I'll chime in on this post, been a long time since I made a comment on it.  I still struggle a great deal with my 5D3, it's worse than the 5D2 by far.  I've noticed that the 5D3 has a worse EV rating than it's brothers which is the excuse canon canada gave to me on my 3rd complaint of terrible low light performance.  Repair center as usual claims no faults found - a standard retort.  It almost seems worse with a flash, which was a problem that was supposedly addressed with a firmware update but seemed to make no difference in mine.  I hate the low light focus so much, I was very tempted to buy the 5D4 which had absoultely unreal low light focus abilites which I tested in a dark room with an f4L 24-105.   So impressed I was going to spend the unreal money on the body but in the end could not sell my 5D3 for anything more than a giveaway price.  

For now, we trudge along with a simply good (but not amazing) camera body, but I suppose it is our faults for not going to another brand right?!  Canon will continue to claim ignorance of the issues and not put in much effort as long as we keep being lazy and stay with them just because we bought the glass.  I don't hate the camera so much, but I question the brand these days.  

P.S.  I concede that there are smarter, better and more educated photographers out there who say they know the body well enough that it's not an issue for them (although the majority have complaints), but if canon cannot determine why our cameras have these issues - how can we?

[ebiggs1]

This is my story.  I have been a Canon owner since 1980.  I worked for a company that was 100% Nikon.  So I have been in a place where I got to see and use both for years upon years.  At first, when DSLR's came on the scene, Canon ruled.  When video came on the scene Canon ruled.  To make it more of a no brainier, Canon had and still has the best lens line in the world.

However, recently Canon has lost both the camera and video 1st place ranking.  Nikon using Sony sensors like the A7r has leap-frogged them into the lead.  Panascomic owns the video world.  Canon still has the best lens line up, period.

One problem, Canon is about the only brand that still keep the AA filter for instance.  They need to do some serious upgrade to their sensors.  Personally, I think Canon still wins as the AF made.

I still use my Nikon's.  I prefer Canon and at this point in my career I don't see me changing even though there might be better models to choose from.