Sigma Video on their lenses adapted to the RF mount

[Tronhard]

Anyone following this site for any length of time will be aware of the controversy among some about the performance of Sigma lenses, and in particular the 150-600 Contemporary, working (or not) on the R-series bodies.

This has led to calls for Canon to modify their cameras to accommodate the perceived issues with third-party lenses.  As I have had to respond ad nauseam, no OEM camera maker takes any responsibility for 3rd party equipment attached to their bodies - be it Nikon, Canon or any other, whether it be lenses or flashes.

Well, about six months ago, SIGMA released the following video on using their current EF lenses on the R-series bodies. 

What is significant to me is their strong statement that their lenses perform well on the R-series  bodies - so obviously they see no issue to be fixed.  While I have faith that Sigma and Tamron are working on RF native lenses and will hopefully be able to release them in the foreseeable future, this video lends weight to the argument that it is more likely that it is how the cameras are set up, or operated. 

I observe that the bodies I have seen most people claim flawless operation are the full-frame bodies, for which the Sigma lenses were designed. Most issues seemed to happen with the APS-C R7 tracking system, which has also had issues reported with Canon EF legacy glass and even RF glass, so I wonder if the focusing system of that unit is worthy of consideration as a factor?  I don't have one so I am only speculating.

Another variable might be the firmware version of the Sigma lenses and their customization settings. There may also be issues with technique - using a tripod vs hand-held.  Finally (tongue in cheek) I observe that that presenter from Sigma is shooting gannets, where I have taken a lot of my shots of the same moving birds without any issue, so maybe someone will suggest that it's all about the subject! 🙂

[shadowsports]

Nice post @Trevor.  I've had a similar experience to yours.  My adapted Sigma glass has performed extremely well for stills on my R5 C.  I do agree with your statement regarding the R7 (APS-C) AF Tracking performance.  I noted that Duade Patton put out a supplemental video to his initial review of the 150-600c where he demonstrated focus pulsing.  He provided some recommended settings changes in a subsequent video.  They appear to have improved subject tracking to about 90%.  Sharing if you'd like to watch.

[Waddizzle]

Great post!

I have also noticed AF performance issues when I used the 150-600 “C” with my 7D2.  I’ve noticed similar issues with my son’s 80D.  The images are a little soft, and tracking is often hit or miss.  I can not think of any logical reason why sensor size should make a difference.  But observations suggest that it can make a big difference.

I have not experienced either issue with full frame sensors, including the APS-H 1D Mark IV.  The 6D2 has the same AF system as the 80D.  The [angle] of view through the AF points on the 80D and the 6D2 are arguably identical.  Yet, the 6D2 captures tack sharp images, as well as my 6D.

[Waddizzle]

Just because you’re a YouTube content creator does not mean you’re a professional.  Duane makes no pretense or claim that he is a professional wildlife photographer.  He is an amateur, who is still learning his gear.  

I’ve posted comments telling him that his issues are a product of his settings and shooting conditions.  Of course, he disagreed.  Months later, he posted the video that you linked.  The solution is simple.  Turn off OS in the Sigma lenses.  Sigma OS and Canon AF have had a long history of getting into a tug-of-war.

His videos about “focus pulsing” were bad science at its ugly worst.  He was focusing on subjects that were either too far away, or subjects that were inside the MFD.  Here is a screenshot from another “focus pulsing” video.  

Can you see the birds that he is trying to photograph?  He was complaining about focus not staying locked on the subjects.  His subjects are on the other side of the lake, hidden in shadows.

[Tronhard]

Hi Rick!
Yes, I have watched Duade's videos, especially the ones on the Sigma and actually had some long email conversations with him.  I explained I had great results with the Sigma on my R6 MkI and MkII, and R5.  I suggested that his experiments and conclusions could not be held as rigorous because:
1.  He tested only one sample of the R7 and the Sigma, which he had borrowed.  I suggested he needed other units to eliminate individual issues and variations.
2. He did not specify if the Sigma had IS turned on or off, but should have done tests with both
3. He could not specify if the two were using the latest firmware and if the Siggy had been customized using the dock
4.  At the time he was using the Sigma he did so from a tripod but not hand-held - both needed to be tested.
5.  I questioned the configuration of the R7 focusing - exactly what setup scenario(s) he used.  I noted that the R7, being an APS-C with a very high pixel density, was using a modified version of the R3 focus and tracking and issues had been seen with Canon native lenses, so there was a risk factor there.  I explained what focusing configuration I was using on my units and that the were not exhibiting pulsing, and encouraged him to try that, but got no response.

Generally, I think Duade was genuinely trying to do the right thing, but his methodology was flawed.  Other You Tubers took his video and extended his conclusions out of context - leading to the demands for Canon to modify their gear - which I find totally perplexing and ignorant.  That is why I posted a series of images of wildlife using different legacy lenses on this site to try to indicate that there were other truths to this whole debate.

[Tronhard]

While I am very pleased that Sigma released the video, what would be very helpful is if they gave a reference to a dive into the settings they used to get results and a strong statement about the rigorous methodology they used to back up their statements.  I truly appreciate the strength of the statement from Sigma, but if the idea is to get people shooting reliably with the Sigma lenses and protect both their own and Canon's good names, it deserves a more technical explanation.

[Waddizzle]

“ Generally, I think Duade was genuinely trying to do the right thing, but his methodology was flawed. “

That’s the “bad science” that I referred to.  He really does mean well.  But he is an amateur with a lot to learn about photography and scientific methods.  Rule #1, you have to detail how others can reproduce your results.  He thinks that box is checked.

I’ve noticed that the image stabilization is turned on when he shows video captured from the HDMI port.  Look in the top left corner.

I failed to make him or his friend understand that MFD applies at the minimum zoom setting, 150mm.  You cannot zoom out to the max, 600mm, and then expect the MFD to be the same.  It is not.  It will be longer by some unspecified amount.  I’ve been argued down.  I gave up on them.

[Tronhard]

Yep.  He's a nice guy, very genuine and I have really enjoyed his laid back videos on bird photography, at which he is very talented.   Nice when you own a huge piece of bush to be able to get out and shoot bird in their habitat when you like!  Still, due to his You Tube success he has branched out into the business of comparing technology and doing reviews as a major focus, rather than a sideline, and I am a bit disappointed in that, but if it makes him money...

[Waddizzle]

---

@Tronhard wrote:

While I am very pleased that Sigma released the video, what would be very helpful is if they gave a reference to a dive into the settings they used to get results and a strong statement about the rigorous methodology they used to back up their statements.  I truly appreciate the strength of the statement from Sigma, but if the idea is to get people shooting reliably with the Sigma lenses and protect both their own and Canon's good names, it deserves a more technical explanation.

---

I think the video is a crime against the truth.  There are real issues with Sigma lenses and Canon camera bodies.  They’re not new.  Sigma discontinued their “APO” lenses for good reason.

The Sigma OS and the Canon AF systems tend to get into a tug-of-war under the right conditions.  I had the 150-500mm APO.  It was a great lens until you started tracking a moving subject.  You would get a loud THUNK out of the lens.  The subject would roll upward out of view, like an old TV set, and everything would go blurry and OOF.  I finally figured out the cure.  I would leave OS turned off.  

I sold it and bought the 150-600 “C”.  It could use the Sigma Dock.  The THUNK issue was cured.  But focus seemed slower.  Making AFMA adjustments revealed the AF motors tended to over/under shoot the mark.  This last led to frequent AF hunting, especially when OS was turned on.  The fix was simple.  Leave OS turned off.

Sigma released a major firmware update to the AF in 2017(?).  They claimed to fixed the hunting, the under/over shoot issue, and increased AF speed by 40%.  I’m not going to question their claims.  

One firmware download later, and I had a different lens.  The lens focused much faster, and seemed to always nail focus.  This was also about when Sigma launched their Global series of lenses, which could also use the Sigma Dock.

But, the Sigma Global series had their own brand new set of issues when used with Canon DSLR bodies.  You could get these large, grey concentric rings in your images.  This problem was caused by a Noise Reduction setting in the camera, which Sigma fixed with a firmware update to all of their lenses compatible with the Sigma Dock.

Introduce the EOS 90D, R, and RP and the concentric ring issue returned.  These bodies had improved DPAF sensors, although Canon did not advertise them as being a next generation in DPAF sensor technology.  Once again a lens firmware update was released to fix the issue.

Some users of Canon MILC bodies seem to have discovered “focus pulsing”.  It looks like a high speed version of the focus hunting that I have seen in Sigma lenses in the past.  Adjust your settings and it goes away.

[ctitanic]

I explained what focusing configuration I was using on my units and that the were not exhibiting pulsing, and encouraged him to try that, but got no response.

---

Could you tell us what configuration did you recommend him, please?