70D bounce flash

[one]

Hi,

Recently I upgraded my 650D to the 70D and I noticed that the pictures are a lot darker (underexposed) when bouncing the flash. I have tested this with several other cameras, the 600D, 650D and the 700D using the 430EXII and 580EX all with the 18-135 STM. All but the 70D resulted in acceptable exposure.

Is there a setting I am missing? I used both the [A+] and P setting.

[mstrathmore]

I recently bought a 70D. Although I do not use it with bounce flash, my comment is this: Canon, I cannot believe your arrogance at not responding even once on your own forums to such a key problem. This basically takes the 70D out of the game for many branches of photography.

Shame on you.

Mark.

[70Downer]

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@mstrathmore wrote:

I recently bought a 70D. Although I do not use it with bounce flash, my comment is this: Canon, I cannot believe your arrogance at not responding even once on your own forums to such a key problem. This basically takes the 70D out of the game for many branches of photography.

Shame on you.

Mark.

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They did reply (Tim) on page 2.

They feel a work around and forcing you to use FEL everytime is a good slution. They dont think they should have to make a camera that works or fix any bugs. After all the issues I have had with the 70D. I not only tell people to stay away from it, but from canon all together. 

[ajs]

I've had my 70D since June and noticed this issue right away like most have stated. I read through this post again to see if anything had changed, but see little progress. It did prompt me to experiment a bit to get more detail though, and I found some curious results.  Disclosure - I'm not using a Canon flash, it is a cheap Neewer NW680 but that doesn't seem to matter considering all the reported issues, it is an E-TTL II compatible flash that works fine otherwise.  

Some observations based on recent testing (Manual mode, ISO 400 locked, 1/60, 5.6 or varied aperture, manual focus, tripod mounted with remote trigger.  I went with flash straight behind camera 2 feet to white wall, teddy bear about 3 feet in front of camera, coverd the VF as this was also called out as the issue by Canon in another post)

1) Results vary based on lens used, very frustrating.  As reported by bobn4burton I have no issues at all with my 50mm 1.8, even when changing aperture it kept up until F14 in a dark room bouncing straight back to a white wall.  40 mm 2.8 STM underexposed.  24mm 2.8 STM no problems at all.  55-250 IS underexposed.  18-55 IS STM mixed results.

2) Results depend on focal length on 18-55, something I haven't seen discussed before.  It works well at 18 and 24, looks pretty good up to about 35mm, then just drops off at or above that point.  I even considered that  the flash zoom may be playing into it, so I locked the zoom manually at 24mm setting, but got same results.  I'd be very interesting in knowing if anyone else can reproduce this result, as I'm wondering if focal length is the key to this issue?

3) It is not that the flash isn't powerful enough to expose the image, the camera is cutting down the flash power.  Not only can you hear the difference easily when shooting, a high power flash makes a large pop audibly.  For some reason, when bouncing instead of turning up the power, it turns it down.  I checked settings and TTL pre-flash power seems to be set at 1/32 (C.Fn #7, "Test firing with autoflash").  To test this, I put flash in manual mode and adjusted until I matched the exposure and found I had to drop to 1/64, whereas a proper exposure was obtained with 1/8 power. Those numbers will vary by test, but the point is that the camera is sending the signal to the flash to cut the power when it should be going the other way.

4) Here is the big one - I'm not convinced this is a problem with only the 70D any longer.  I have tested a Rebel T3 and T4i and they all show the same issue, it is just worse on the 70D.  If you set up a controlled test I think you will find the same thing, and that may be why Canon keeps saying there is nothing wrong with the camera.  I think there is something wrong with E-TTL II in general.  In all cameras tested on the same lenses and same objects, the flash had plenty of power to properly expose the image but as I zoomed in more the underexposure got worse.

I'd love to know if anyone else can replicate my findings.  I cycled through apertures from wide open to max, tried different ISO and shutter speeds, etc.  The main thing I found causing inconsistent results was focal length, since EF 40 STM was dark and EF 50 was fine, that's not even a direct correlation.  And repicate the test on other bodies to see that they also underexpose in certain scenarios.  

[israelury]

I was so frustrated by the flash exposure problems that I sold my 70D. I was about to jump ship to Nikon when the 7D MkII came out. I have an investment in EF lenses so I took the chance (and $1,800) on the 7DM2. So far the results are outstanding! I just wish the 7DM2 had an articulating screen...but overall it's an incredible camera.

[esam]

I used to get excellent results with my 450D (Rebel XSi) and the 580EXII flash. Then I upgraded to 70D and the first occassion to use it for was my son's high school graduation. I got horrible results. I thought I was doing something wrong and tried everything I knew, to no avail. I took it back to the local dealer. They supposedly serviced it, but of course I know there's nothing that they could do. Indoor shooting with the bounce flash remains appalling, and I don't use it for night and indoor photography anymore. It's a shame, and it's disappointing that Canon is not doing anything about it. I am seriously thinking of jumping ship to Nikon.

[ajs]

This thread is so old now I almost forgot about it.  I'm glad you posted, it gave me a reminder to update.  I found a cheap fix for this issue.  Well, it's not a fix per se, but I've found that I get way better shots and way less shots that are underexposed by using Neewer NW 565 TTL flashes.  I posted a review on amazon (look for review from AJ) for them with details.  In general, this flash seems to overexpose on my 70D if ever pointed directly at the subject.  In fact, in the manual that came with the flash it says not to point directly at the subject.  I think because of this overexposure it makes the images more normal on the 70D when bounced.  I still have the same effects as before, like when using my 18-55 zoom it is fine at 18-35 range but then gets darker as I go from 35-55, with 55 being the worst.  However, I've found it to expose perfectly with the EFS 24mm STM pancake and 50mm 1.8II.  The 40mm STM pancake tends to give slightly underexposed results, but compensation can easily be set to make up for it.

Check them out on Amazon.  For $65 you get a wireless TTL speedlight that will take away maybe 90% of your 70D frustrations.  I bought 2 of them, they work great as a pair.  They are the main reason I basically forgot about this post.  I was as frustrated as everyone else at first, but after this discovery I forgot all about it.  Hope this helps!

[RobertTheFat]

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@ajs wrote:

This thread is so old now I almost forgot about it.  I'm glad you posted, it gave me a reminder to update.  I found a cheap fix for this issue.  Well, it's not a fix per se, but I've found that I get way better shots and way less shots that are underexposed by using Neewer NW 565 TTL flashes.  I posted a review on amazon (look for review from AJ) for them with details.  In general, this flash seems to overexpose on my 70D if ever pointed directly at the subject.  In fact, in the manual that came with the flash it says not to point directly at the subject.  I think because of this overexposure it makes the images more normal on the 70D when bounced.  I still have the same effects as before, like when using my 18-55 zoom it is fine at 18-35 range but then gets darker as I go from 35-55, with 55 being the worst.  However, I've found it to expose perfectly with the EFS 24mm STM pancake and 50mm 1.8II.  The 40mm STM pancake tends to give slightly underexposed results, but compensation can easily be set to make up for it.

Check them out on Amazon.  For $65 you get a wireless TTL speedlight that will take away maybe 90% of your 70D frustrations.  I bought 2 of them, they work great as a pair.  They are the main reason I basically forgot about this post.  I was as frustrated as everyone else at first, but after this discovery I forgot all about it.  Hope this helps!

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A TTL flash will invariably overexpose on a 70D, which, like most modern Canon cameras, requires E-TTL (or E-TTL II). So yeah, don't point a TTL flash directly at the subject. Better yet, don't buy one.

The problem with E-TTL, which is well known but poorly documented, stems from its aversion to blown highlights. If you expose for the background and treat the flash as fill, you'll usually get good results. If you point the flash at the subject and rely on it as the sole light source, only the highlights will be properly exposed.

Because of the way E-TTL works, it stands to reason that it would handle bounce flash well. And indeed that's been my experience. (When you bounce, the flash lights the background in spite of itself.) So I'm very suspicious of these reports of bounce flash working poorly on the 70D and other recent cameras. The tricky thing about bounce flash is that you have to get the angle right; otherwise you'll lose much of the value of the light. So bounce flash is a learned skill, and newbies invariably get inconsistent results. I'm not trying to denigrate the skills of those reporting problems; but if the shoe fits, wear it.

[one]

Bob,

You clearly do not have this problem. If you use it in a studio it’s not problem, you can play with the flash compensation until you get it right.

But how would you do it at an indoor party or at a wedding when even the ceiling is not even? Yes, use FEL. Snap, oh darn (edited by moderator) forgot FEL. Snap, under exposed, flash compensation set +3 and snap again. Snap, over exposed, forgot to reset flash compensation to +1.

I thought E-TTL was there to do the “thinking” for me. With my old 650D about 90% where exposed correctly. With the 70D just 20% is exposed correctly with the same settings.

If you like to wear the shoe, try using bounce flash by setting the flash on manual or buy a 70D and one of the “recommended” lenses here.

[ajs]

Bob,

Please note that by TTL I meant E-TTL II, I didn't literally mean the NW-565EX uses old school first generation TTL tech.  I figured that was implied with any new flash recently released.  I only used that term to specify that it wasn't a manual flash.  You can see the capabilities if you check it out on any website.  Yes I am a novice, but have been shooting casually for 4 years now, the last year with  my 70D.  

I found this forum and the great description from "bobn4burton" on this thread very shortly after getting my 70D very helpful because it described the results I got from my camera exactly.  Not having had the same magnitude of underexposure with my T3 using the same exact setup was very frustrating.  Finding out that I wasn't the only person and wasn't doing anything "wrong" was helpful, so I was just trying to pay that back.  Maybe I don't know how to get perfect angles, but isn't that exactly what E-TTL II is supposed to automate for you?  I mainly use my camera chasing around my young children just trying to get a cute shot.  If you constantly need to adjust settings for a target on the move, that defeats the purpose of the system.

If you have any helpful information or tips that you could share with others dealing with the same issue please share.  Do you own a 70D and have never even noticed this issue?  Then please share the lenses that you are using.  If you read my previous post you'll see that I get noticably different results with the same setup using different lenses.  It's not like the camera can't figure out how to expose the scene properly.  If you use FEL first, you get good results most of the time, if not overexposed.  That's why I don't quite understand why the "angles" have anything to do with it.  It's not like the flash isn't capable of exposing the scene correctly, the camera just tells it to use a much lower output than it should in some cases.  If it was consistent it would be easy to remedy.  The fact that it is variable is what is so frustrating.  That's why I came back to this forum to post about the Neewer flash.  I don't work for them or get paid to sell their products, I've just found that I get better results using my 70D paired with one or two of them at a time.  And at about $65 each (on Amazon) it seems like something worth trying for others that find themselves in my shoes.  

[heresrob]

It's been a long time since any posts have discussed the issue of dark bounce flash. I am wondering if most have just given up because Canon won't address the issue or it's just too old a camera to be bothered with? I do like the 70D but, the bounce flash issue bothers me and I have to go into manual mode to use it in bounce. Otherwise the FEB button has to be pushed each time to take a picture. This is completely unacceptable when setting up fpr a portrait shot. I'd like to bounce off a reflector or umbrella and this would make this a difficult setup.

So, the question remains. Canon won't admit there's a problem with the 70D and gives us a lame work around to solve the problem they won't fix