Would you recommend improving glass before the camera?

[ScottS]

Would you recommend improving glass before the camera? My situation is this: I own a Canon 40D, which I purchased very clean from a photographer who was upgrading to the 70D. I own only kit lenses at this point. One of them is the "Nifty Fifty" Canon 50mm 1.8. I can't afford my ultimate dream quite yet of full-frame and L series glass. I think I can begin to either upgrade my lenses or my camera.

My choice right now is between the following scenarios:

Stay with my Canon 40D ~ purchase the Canon 70-200mm 2.8 IS II

Stay with my Canon 40D ~ purchase the Sigma 18-35 MM 1.8 Art Lens

(possibly both of those)

OR

Purchase the Canon 7D Mark II w/ the 18-135 STM Kit Lens

Purchase the Canon 6D w/ the 24-105 f4 Lens

I am leaning toward better glass, because low light, clear, sharp photographs are my goal. Video and sports photography are not what I'm needing now.

I am very open to your thoughts and experience.

Thanks much!

Scott S

[Waddizzle]

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@ScottS wrote:
 

I was looking at dropping about $2600 on the "package." I've also been eyeing the Canon 85mm 1.8. Though that is not "wide-angle," the low light capacity and portrait strengths have me interested. Moneymoneymoney :)!

The second question is how do you feel about getting refurbished or used lenses, such as eBay and Craigslist?

Thanks for ALL your insights, Scott 🙂

Scott

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I would be very reluctant to buy a used lens from someone I did not know.  I would never buy camera gear from eBay, Amazon, Craigslist, etc.  It is a risk that I would never take, but some folks accept it.  There are much better purchase options out there.  I use B&H, out of New York City.  Their post sale service is outstanding.

I have purchased refurbished lenses from the Canon online store.  I have had excellent results buying refurbished lenses.  They come with a one year warranty, just like new gear.  The prices tend to run about 15-20% less than list prices, but selected lenses each week are discounted even further.  The 24-105 f4L was selling at 40% off list last week.

I use a 6D, which was an upgrade from a Rebel T5.  I just picked a Canon battery grip for it.  Most reviews do give the 7D MkII the nod over the 6D.  I purchased a refurbished 6D from Canon for just over $1000, while the 7D was selling for $400 more at the time.  Put the $400 towards the 24-105L, which was selling at nearly 40% off.  The entire package cost me less than $1600.  The prices closed the deal for me, to pick the 6D

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I have been following this thread because I've been considering a lens purchase, too.  I have the 24-105 f4L, and a Sigma 150-500, which leaves a hole between 105mm and 150mm.  I have had my eye on one of the 70-200 "L" series lenses.  There are two lenses at f/4 and f/2.8.  For each speed, there is the basic STM lens, and one that adds IS and weather sealing. 

The price jump to add IS and weather sealing is significant.  I have also been debating whether or not I need the f/2.8.  Based upon my shooting habits, I don't think I need f/2.8.  However, I think my shooting habits just may change in the future, and the f/2.8 would be the better choice for me.  I like shooting landscapes, and I frequently have encounters with the wildlife. 

I mention this to bring your attention to how well the 6D and 7D mark II are weather sealed.  Perhaps, someone could speak on this topic.

[ScottyP]

I really like 35mm lenses on a FF body.  It is a very very useful walk around length. It is also nice that a wider lens like a 35mm does not give as shallow a depth of field as a longer lens does when wide open.  I like to shoot mine at wide apertures in dim light, but it leaves enough of the subject in focus, where a longer lens might not give a usable DOF. 

Canon has a couple of good ones.  I have the Sigma Art 35mm f/1.4 and I love the thing.  I use it more than any other lens.  

[ScottS]

Scott!

You named the #1 lens that I have been "researching and reading" all about lately. The Sigma 35mm/1.4 Art Lens. If I do go with the Canon 6D and the 24-105 f4, this lens seems like the perfect partner.

I was looking at a Steve Huff website last night. He features this very lens and the Canon 85mm/ f1.2. He's got some stunning work to show for those two lenses in his "street shots in NYC!" All with a 6D.

So you are able to shoot in fairly low light with the Sigma, I gather?

Thanks for the info!

Scott 🙂

[ebiggs1]

"The Sigma 35mm/1.4 Art Lens. If I do go with the Canon 6D and the 24-105 f4, this lens seems like the perfect partner."

This, Scott's advice, is very good.  I have used this combo for a long while.  I can highly recommend it. (Not the 6D but my 1DS Mk III and Siggy 35 Art)

"So you are able to shoot in fairly low light with the Sigma, I gather?"

Are you reading and understanding the concept of f-stops?   Simply buying a low number f-ratio lens may not be enough.  Don't forget f2.8  is only one stop faster than f4.  That is not a make or break deal. Consequently f1.4 is two stops faster than f2.8.  This is beginning to be a big deal.  3 full stops is a big deal. f4 to f1.4 for example.

If you think a f1.2 lens over a f1.4 is going to make an outstanding low light photographer out of you, you are mistaken.

I just don't want you to be disappointed buying something that isn't going to do what your concept of it is.  The 6D and the Siggy 35mm Art is going to be about as good as it gets for low light.  The 6D and ef 24-105mm f4 is going to be the most useful for general purposes.  You will use it most of the time.

[Waddizzle]

from an older post:

"This is because noise in the FF camera gets enlarged less.  Again a fault of AOVor DOF. This is the signal-to-noise ratio.  A consideration in photography is "shoot to the right".  Which means to over expose slightly to help reduce noise instead of unexposed.  If noise is your big concern, that is."

If by "shoot to the right" you mean slightly overexpose, then that makes sense for film.  But, I would think "shoot to the left" would be more appropriate for digital imaging.  Because overexposure [to the right] would mean more amplification, which should raise your noise floor, decreasing your signal-to-noise ratio as a result at some point.

I've been busy being a first time grandfather since January 1.  That was an interesting discussion, though.  No, I'm not trying to revive it.  Just an observation, that "shoot to the left" might be better for digital imaging, instead of "shoot to the right" was for film.

[ScottS]

ebiggs,

Your comment to me:

"I just don't want you to be disappointed buying something that isn't going to do what your concept of it is.  The 6D and the Siggy 35mm Art is going to be about as good as it gets for low light."

confused me.

That's precisely why I made that comment at the top of your post, in response to Scott P's writing about the Sigma, when I wrote:

"The Sigma 35mm/1.4 Art Lens. If I do go with the Canon 6D and the 24-105 f4, this lens seems like the perfect partner."

Meaning, compared to the 24-105 f/4, this Siggy lens WILL make a huge opportunity for better photographs in lower light, yes?

I appreciate all of your insights. I just felt a bit foggy about your input on that, because it sounded like you were saying that I didn't understand that 1.4 is a huge difference than 4 in f stops. And my question to Scott P about "So it shoots pretty well in low light?" was kind of meant as an "arm tap" smirk comment. I was just hoping he might share some additional thoughts on that. But I appreciate your reminding me that photography is all about many levels of understanding, and not just numbers and data. As a musician, I couldn't agree more. It's like when i know people enjoy music, but don't know what goes into creating it vs. being a performer, conductor, teacher myself ~ all kinds of additional insight and wisdom goes into that.

So i know I need to "work the craft," including growing in knowledge on all of these factors. I just don't want to take my "first steps toward higher level purchases" with naive thoughts. That's why I appreciate yours, Scott's, TT's, and a few others who are sharing wisdom. 

In short ~ Thanks!

So coming from a Canon 40D and kit lenses, and considering purchasing the Canon 6D w/ the "kit" L 24-105 f4, and a Sigma 1.4mm Art Lens.....sounds like I'd be opening some photography doors for myself.

[ebiggs1]

"... Siggy lens WILL make a huge opportunity for better photographs in lower light, yes?"

Well for starters that statement makes me wonder.  The word "huge".

Most people read all the reviews they can. The problem is some, maybe more than half, are written by people just like you.  They really have little idea or experience in how this craft works.  Folks buy a DSLR and pay some large coin for it and overnight they become pros.  And if I have become a pro, I can write a review since I got a DSLR with a couple of lenses.

Like I said, I don't want you to drop the dime and think you will have night vision.  The 6D with the ef 24-105mm f4L and the Siggy 35mm Art is going to be a killer "starter" combo.  Just about as good as it gets for low light and general photography.  But it will still have its limits as to what it can do.

Our new Grandpa is still off just a tad as, if you read and understood my earlier post, DR, Resolution, Noise and high ISO performance depends on pixel size.  Not sensor size.  Forget FF vs crop (6D vs 7D).  It is the pixel size itself that matters.

Example, the 5D Mk III has a pixel size of 6.25 microns.  The 7D has a pixel size of 4.3.  If this was the only spec we were to consider the 5D wins the high ISO case.

The larger the effective pixel area, the lower the noise and the lower the noise the higher the dynamic range. If you double the pixel size (pitch) then the signal/noise ratio improves correspondingly. Lower noise means that you can shoot at higher ISO settings. What you get with cameras is a compromise between resolution and noise . Big pixels give you lower resolution.  But lower noise equal higher dynamic range. Small pixels give you higher resolution along with higher noise and lower dynamic range.  What this means is the 6D is going to beat the 7D in low light shooting.  The Siggy 35mm Art is going to help it.

The new 5Ds is capable of resolving a huge amount of detail, but it’s not the best choice for shooting in very low light as another example.

"... being a performer, conductor, teacher myself ..."

What kind of music do you teach?  I play trombone in several groups around here. I tutor at the local high school and middle school.  I do lots of composing and arranging for some local groups and I am a beta tester for Finale.  My son has a Masters degree in music and teaches at the high school and Emporia State University plus the local community colleges.  I was involved in music way before photography.

[ScottS]

Hey Ernie!

Very cool that we have music in common! I teach at a junior high in the Twin Cities Metro of Minnesota. I "live" with 7th, 8th, and 9th Graders all day long, all year long ~ and of course LOVE 'em!  As a music educator trained undergrad and graduate, I play along at lessons with all of my students. (well, all except the bassoon and oboe ~ gotta work on my pedagogy there a bit!). We are one of the fastest growing schools in Minnesota, and thankfully the administrative leaders value the fine arts. So our music staff has also grown.

So you perform on trombone, compose and arrange, tutor at schools, and beta test for Finale? WOW! That is impressive! That PLUS all of your photographic knowledge. You are multiply "tooled!" We use Finale at our schools and love it. Are any of your arrangments/compositions published? I mean, could someone in Minnesnowta actually have a look :)?

Scott S

[ScottS]

Thanks for sharing, Waddizzle! I assume you're thoroughly enjoying your Canon 6D! I'm really "leaning" that way now, even though the 24-105 f4 still leaves me wanting a lens for darker shooting. Glad to hear the weather sealing of the camera is solid. I'm a trekker in India, and it can get very dusty there :)!!!

[Waddizzle]

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@ScottS wrote:

Thanks for sharing, Waddizzle! I assume you're thoroughly enjoying your Canon 6D! I'm really "leaning" that way now, even though the 24-105 f4 still leaves me wanting a lens for darker shooting. Glad to hear the weather sealing of the camera is solid. I'm a trekker in India, and it can get very dusty there :)!!!

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No, I did not mean to suggest that the weather sealing on a 6D is "solid."  If anything, it may be just the opposite.  The weather sealing on the 6D is reportedly not as good as on a 5D series, or on a 1D series.  I treat my 6D as if it had no sealing at all.  I have not investigated the weather sealing on a 7D mark II.  It [weather sealing] is something that I learned about the 6D after I had purchased it.

The 24-105 is a lens that changes its' lengths as you vary the focal length, which means that it lacks internal focusing and so the housing must "breathe" a little bit in order to change its' length. [In other words, the 24-105 isn't weather sealed, and will likely "inhale" dust in a dusty environment.  Ditto for a damp, misty environement.]  The internal focusing of the 70-200mm lenses is what I find most attractive about them. Gear gets dirty in the woods.  I  would want to carry either an inexpensive, disposable lens, or a more costly lens that does employ weather sealing.

I will either go with the 70-200mm f/4 USM, or the 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II USM.  Big difference, I know.  But, if I am going to spend the extra money on IS and weather sealing on an f/4, which is nearly double the cost without it, then I figure I'm better off going with the f/2.8 because I'm already 2/3 of the way there in cost.

I use the 24-105mm for walk around shooting, mostly outdoors.  It works well in well lit indoor situations, too.  But, my "new nifty fifty" is great for shooting without a flash, which is something else I have been mulling over.  I do not see myself needing to synch multiple flash units, so something like the 430EX II would probably suit me perfectly.  For now, a tripod fills the need for most all of my low light, indoor shots.  I'll use my Rebel T5, if I need a flash.