03-26-2020 03:31 PM
Hi John and Ernie,
You guys are really the best. There are a lot of good suggestions here, HSL among them, which I do mess with in LR Classic when trying to adjust for print. HSL, white balance, and tint seemed to be what made the most sense for color adjustments, though I've even messed with camera calibration trying to get rid of the green tint.
That said, you guys brought this around to monitor calibration so I have to ask: I'm running a 2019 MacBook with the LG 5K monitor that Apple sells. The two look very similar to me color-wose so I haven't started messing with them, but I hardly have a trained eye. People seem SO divided online about whether or not newish Mac products should be calibrated or not. Some warn that one shouldn't even bother trying to print accurately without calibrating first. Others warn that amateurs (like me) might very well do more harm than good by trying to calibrate away from what comes out of the factory. If it's relevant, my very thoughtful girlfriend got me a SpyderX Pro for Christmas. It's sat under my desk in its box ever since because my inexperience leads me to the doctor's adage, "do no harm".
I'd love both of your takes on this: do nothing, do the software calibration you both mentioned, use the SpyderX and its included software, or some combination.
Thank you both, again and again,
03-26-2020 04:08 PM
My vote would be to print the OutbackPhoto test print and see 1. how is my printer doing and 2. how close is my monitor to my printer output.
I calibrate my monitor because I have access to a calibration device and it isn't hard to do. But, in comparing the results the change between factory setting and calibration is not discernible. Biggest impact comes from controlling brightness.
03-27-2020 10:46 AM
"Biggest impact comes from controlling brightness."
On this we are in 100% agreement along with grayscale. You have to have the grayscale right. Period! End of discussion.
Most people set their monitors, and they come from the factory set, way too bright with too much contrast. However, these are easy to fix.
While I was with Hallmark, 40 years, in Kansas City, we had some 12 or 15 laboratory monitors. We had a special technician that did all the calibration. The monitor had to match the art work which as to match the ink which has to match the press which had to, etc and etc. One fact monitors even laboratory monitors don't stay calibrated. Also, are you calibrating the monitor to your printer that tends toward green or are you doing some standardized chart? If you use a standard chart your printer won't know that and will still print greenish tint. If you were to calibrate something it would seem more positive to me to calibrate the printer! That's not as easy. That's why I do it in PS/LR using among other adjustments, HSL.
Like I mentioned I have had a half dozen of these Pro-xxxx Canon printers. I have spent a lot of time on the phone with Canon techs over the apparent tint in all of them. The Canon techs are helpful and willing to assist and recommend solutions. But the tint bias remains. I don't know exactly how Canon energises each ink cartridge but apparently some settings increases or decrease the amount of ink it lays down. Each printer has it's basic factory calibration done at the end of the assembly line. That tech, in Japan, may have a magenta bias or green bias, I don't know. At any rate that is where the base line of the printer is set.
If B&W is your main most thing, you did not pick the right photo printer.
03-28-2020 12:08 PM
When you're talking about controlling brightness do you mean adjusting for it each time one prints or making an adjustment (calibration?) to the monitor? (With grayscale I know you mean calibration, Ernie.) So bottom line is that you guys wouldn't necessarily bother using the Spyder right now, but rather get the grayscale and brightness closer to accurate via the method John referred to in a prior post?
To make matters more ocnfusing, I've now been testing another B&W image (that had also been round-tripped like the others from LR to PS and back to LR for printing) and I've had no problems with tint whatsoever. Great B&W image. The brightness & contrast of the grayscale definitely change somewhat paper to paper, but no discernible color biases in any case, near as I can tell. So strange.
And Ernie, I'm happy to report that no, I don't primarily print B&W. I don't primarily print to begin with, to be honest. Photography is a hobby I picked up (albeit very earnestly and dedicatedly) in my late 30's, only about five years ago, so I'm just now in the past year coming around to digging into the printing side of things. It's early days for me, thus I appreciate all the more the endless patience you guys have demonstrated with me.
03-28-2020 01:04 PM
Hi Karl - a few questions first.
1. what was different for the print that came out as a good B&W print - anything and everything you can identify.
2. if you mouse-over sections of a B&W image on screen check the LR histogram. Are the RGB values equal to each other? What method are you suing for B&W conversion?
I would not input another variable now by using the Spyder. From what i have read the Apple monitor is well calibrated at the factory. I think you can get very close using eyeball and the OutbackPhoto test image.
03-28-2020 01:09 PM
"When you're talking about controlling brightness do you mean adjusting for it each time one prints ..."
I realized the printer wasn't printing what I was seeing so I jumped through hoops to figure out why. Wasted a lot of ink and paper! After all at Hallmark everything was just so. I finally got to the point, I don't print all the time. I really don't print more than once a week. When I have several jobs to get out. When using the computer you and I like the brighter and more contrasty screen. That is way more time than the time I spend printing. So, now I just adjust what I see in PS to where I know my printer is printing. I leave the monitor alone. I do have the grayscale set properly.
If you want to set your monitor to where your printer is printing that's fine. Just remember it will be darker and less contrasty for all your other general computer use. Difference between light and ink.
I started printing my work because it is easier than sending it out and waiting. Especially when you have lots of clients always wanting their photos right now. Then if if is wrong or something happens, you start all over and the waiting begins again.
A few years ago B&W was in. It seemed like everybody wanted B&W photos. It comes and goes.
"I've had no problems with tint whatsoever. Great B&W image."
Feels good doesn't it?
" I appreciate all the more the endless patience you guys have demonstrated with me."
Hey the pleasure is all mine. A little help you might have received is great. I am retired now. Not anywhere near as busy as before. Probably no way a working photographer making money has time to live on Canon forum!
03-28-2020 03:30 PM
" I think you can get very close using eyeball ..."
+1 Once you know what is going on this will work as well as is possible anyway. Again the Pro-100 isn't the best B&W photo printer even when it is at its best.
03-31-2020 11:59 AM
Hello again guys,
Ernie, you read my mind about the monitor matching the printer. Printing is something I like to do only semi-regularly and it's not even my career, and I do like the monitor how I like it from the factory for general purposes.
John, that's a good question and suggestion. I'll take a look at the RGB in the histogram on the photo in question as I haven't been able to figure out what's different about the other B&W photo that prints without the tint. It's possible I applied the B&W in Photoshop on one of them and in LR in the other one. I also mess around with Luminar occasionally but I don't think I did with either of these photos. I should check on that though, as the "green problem" did start around the time Luminar joined my workflow. Seems like a long shot but will see.
Of course comparing the greener B&W print with the other B&W print won't explain why a lot of my color prints have a green cast as well. It's just not as noticeable there for obvious reason.
Anyway, I have some good suggestions to go on with, thanks again guys. I'll run the test you suggested and get the grayscale set.