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VIP
Posts: 10,993
Registered: ‎12-07-2012

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

" I may send it to CS and let them look at it. It is an L lens it should be sharper."

 

OK you can send it in but if there is not any mechanical damage of miss-alignment the lens is still as sharp as it will ever be.  Even Canon can not make it any sharper than it is. It is best to send the camera/lens combo in together.

EOS 1DX and 1D Mk IV, even less and less other stuff.
Occasional Contributor
Posts: 23
Registered: ‎11-30-2018

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels


@ebiggs1 wrote:

" I may send it to CS and let them look at it. It is an L lens it should be sharper."

 

OK you can send it in but if there is not any mechanical damage of miss-alignment the lens is still as sharp as it will ever be.  Even Canon can not make it any sharper than it is. It is best to send the camera/lens combo in together.


With any number of my prime lenses I get tack sharp images even down to 200 300% mag with the EOS R. It is this one L 24-105 I seem to be having issues with. It's about a year old now. I think it is an alignment problem internally. I am overly protective of my glass it has never been banged around or dropped. All of my gear is transported in Pelican Cases when I travel. I am waiting for a 100-400 USM IS L II to arrive. We'll see how that is before I go sending this one off. I may be expecting too much from these lenses.

 

I really appreciate your input. Nice to get help from a pro.

 

thanks!

New Contributor
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎11-29-2018

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels


@ebiggs1 wrote:

" So a 30mp camera effectively is now 11.6mp, much less than what I have with my current set up."

 

Actually you are only mathematically correct but not photographic.  The pixel density is still exactly the same.  The resulting photo will exhibit the same IQ.


If I am understanding you correctly then this would impact how large a print I can make without losing print quality?  For example, according to this guide Megapixel Chart  I should be able to print up to a 9 x 14 at 300 ppi as long as I didn't crop much. And, according to the comments, with some photoshop tricks and using slightly less ppi, I should be able to achieve even larger prints without sacrificing quality; how far I can push this is determined more by the quality of my sensor and lenses.  What about the statement made in the comments regarding sensors; that, for example, a "larger 6MP sensor will of course produce better images than a smaller 6MP sensor of the same type."  What does this mean exactly? That full frame sensors are better than crop?

Esteemed Contributor
Posts: 4,921
Registered: ‎06-25-2014

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels


@mindawoo wrote:

@ebiggs1 wrote:

" So a 30mp camera effectively is now 11.6mp, much less than what I have with my current set up."

 

Actually you are only mathematically correct but not photographic.  The pixel density is still exactly the same.  The resulting photo will exhibit the same IQ.


If I am understanding you correctly then this would impact how large a print I can make without losing print quality?  For example, according to this guide Megapixel Chart  I should be able to print up to a 9 x 14 at 300 ppi as long as I didn't crop much. And, according to the comments, with some photoshop tricks and using slightly less ppi, I should be able to achieve even larger prints without sacrificing quality; how far I can push this is determined more by the quality of my sensor and lenses.  What about the statement made in the comments regarding sensors; that, for example, a "larger 6MP sensor will of course produce better images than a smaller 6MP sensor of the same type."  What does this mean exactly? That full frame sensors are better than crop?


Yes. The larger the pixel, the more light it can collect, and the more accurate it can be about what photons it sees relative to its neighbors. And full-frame sensors, except in the highest resolution cameras, have larger pixels. Which represents an improvement in image quality. But the effect is greater on low-light performance than on resolution: 6 MP is still 6MP.

Bob
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA
Reputable Contributor
Posts: 501
Registered: ‎01-25-2018

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

Bob explained that well.  For a given level of technology, the larger the individual sensor cells the better the low light performance.  When low light performance goes down, in addition to noise you also run into the issue of color shift and loss of color vibrancy as processing compensates in an effort to reduce apparent noise.  My 1DX 2 and 1DX perform well in low lighting sports situations but I would love to to experiment with how an 8 Mp version using the same sensor technology with resultant much larger sensor cells would perform.

 

I remember reading a funny article quite a few years ago about a professional photographer set up to take photos at a road rally and two amateur photographers were snickering about him using his then 4 year old original Canon 1D (with all of 4 megapixel resolution) while they had their much newer multi-megapixel consumer grade cameras.  A pair of cars raced by and the pro captured several nice images while they had nothing but garbage.

 

The number of megapixels is an easy metric that the average consumer thinks he/she understands but it is only one part of the chain of characteristics leading to good image quality.

 

Rodger  

EOS 1DX M2, 1DX, 1D M2, EOS 650 (film), many lenses, XF400 video
Occasional Contributor
Posts: 23
Registered: ‎11-30-2018

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

Essentially it's like this:

 

An APS C sensor is 24mmx16mm = 384 sqmm a 18mp sensor has 46,875 pixels per sqmm

 

A Full Frame Sensor is 36 x 24mm = 864 sq mm a 30mp sensor has 34,722.22 pixels per sqmm

 

That being said the full frame pixels are 1.3 times LARGER than than the APS C

 

What this means is the full frame sensor pixels are able to gather more light and image information than the APS C therefore leaving you with a somewhat higher quality image per pixel. very handy in low light.

 

That being said the high end EOS 1DX is a 20.2mp full frame sensor and that sensor has 23,379.629 pixels per sqmm. which means these are even larger (2 times an 18mp APS C) and therefore gather more light and more data quickly. This why you can get such high frame rates from EOS 1DX.

 

All of this being said there is no PERFECT camera for ALL instances and ALL budgets. 11.6mp is 11.6mp....however those pixels can vary in size and light gathering capabilities.

 

If I have made an error here someone please politely point it out. I hadnt thought about this in depth until ebiggs pointed it out to me....amd I thnk him for that.  I hope this helps.

Honored Contributor
Posts: 7,963
Registered: ‎08-13-2015

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels


@CarlG wrote:

Essentially it's like this:

 

An APS C sensor is 24mmx16mm = 384 sqmm a 18mp sensor has 46,875 pixels per sqmm

 

A Full Frame Sensor is 36 x 24mm = 864 sq mm a 30mp sensor has 34,722.22 pixels per sqmm

 

That being said the full frame pixels are 1.3 times LARGER than than the APS C

 

What this means is the full frame sensor pixels are able to gather more light and image information than the APS C therefore leaving you with a somewhat higher quality image per pixel. very handy in low light.

 

That being said the high end EOS 1DX is a 20.2mp full frame sensor and that sensor has 23,379.629 pixels per sqmm. which means these are even larger (2 times an 18mp APS C) and therefore gather more light and more data quickly. This why you can get such high frame rates from EOS 1DX.

 

All of this being said there is no PERFECT camera for ALL instances and ALL budgets. 11.6mp is 11.6mp....however those pixels can vary in size and light gathering capabilities.

 

If I have made an error here someone please politely point it out. I hadnt thought about this in depth until ebiggs pointed it out to me....amd I thnk him for that.  I hope this helps.


Eh, I think you’re on the right track, but your math and conclusions are a little fuzzy.  You are conflating pixel density with pixel size, which is incorrect.  For example, the 6D uses very large pixels for 20MP resolution.  The 6D2 has 26MP resolution on the same full frame sensor size, but the pixel size is just slightly smaller than those in the 6D.

 

The size of the individual pixels on different Canon sensors can be found in the specifications.  In the case of the 6D2, engineers were apparently able to reduce the space between pixels.  They were able to fit 30% more pixels within the same area.

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VIP
Posts: 10,993
Registered: ‎12-07-2012

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

"..."larger 6MP sensor will of course produce better images than a smaller 6MP sensor of the same type." "

 

Some how we got off of resolution and onto low light performance? I am going to stick to resolution for now but we can discuss low light if you want. First you can not just compare sensors without considering the whole camera. For instance any newer sensor is going to out perform most older sensors. Make sense, as they should as technology advances. A 6MP sensor made with 2019 tech should be better than a 2009 6MP sensor. The rest of the innards of the camera will also come into play. The sensor type is also a consideration, BSI (Back Side Illuminated) CMOS or CCD. An 18MP Rebel has pixels that are approx. 4.3 microns and my 18MP 1DX they are 6.9 microns. As you might conclude the Rebel is going to have higher IQ because the pixels are smaller and there is going to be more on subject. This starts another debate whether it is better to shoot with a crop sensor with smaller pixels and enlarge it to the same size as the FF or just use the FF in the first place.

 

The more pixels you put on a sensor, the smaller the pixel will be. Correct?  An 18 megapixel sensor will have smaller pixels than a 12 megapixel sensor, assuming both sensors were exactly the same size.  However there is nothing saying the pixels have to be crammed as tightly as possible, sometimes they are not but that is a general rule of thumb. The sensor type is also a consideration,  BSI (Back Side Illuminated) CMOS or a CCD sensor.

 

General rule a smaller sensor is not going to be able to make as big of a print as an equivalent larger sensor when viewed at reasonable distances.  The viewing distance must also be considered. And the most confusing part is DPI. Cameras and Photoshop do not have DPI.  Only printers have DPI. Cameras always shoot at whatever resolution they were made with.

 

"All of this being said there is no PERFECT camera..."  You are correct, sir!

 

 

EOS 1DX and 1D Mk IV, even less and less other stuff.
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Occasional Contributor
Posts: 23
Registered: ‎11-30-2018

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

Yes I was trying to be too simplistic in my reply. Utilizing very basic APS C dimensions vs Full Frame and not from Canons specs. You are of course correct. Just imagine the sensor from the R in a 1DX mirrorless with dual Digic 8 processors! Fun times. I was though trying to be simple in an explanation 😂
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