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Occasional Contributor
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎07-19-2017

Canon EOS 5DMarkIV

Hello Canon,

 

I don't know if you can help with this problem but, i'm crossing my finger !

 

When I open a 5D Mark III (3) raw file in DPP, i can set the rendering to : sRGB/sRGB or sRGB/AdobeRGB while changing the color space.
In Camera Raw (photoshop), Adobe have taken the "sRGB" look for their DCP Profile (Camera Standard so).

 

When I open a 5D Mark IV (4) raw file in DPP, i can set the rendering to : sRGB/sRGB or sRGB/AdobeRGB while changing the color space.. Like 5D Mark III raw files so.
But... in Camera Raw , Adobe have taken this time the "AdobeRGB" look, and it's horrible ! (too contrasty, to much saturated red in a calibrated screen).

 

So, please, Canon, if you have contacts with Adobe, tell them to make a good profile for YOUR camera...
I'm frustrated and i'm hesitating to sell my camera and change it for other, and i'm not happy with that.

 

Thank you Canon !

 

NB: Here is the link in adobe feedback forums where I explained the problem, with screens shots and link to them :

 

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/5d-mark-iv-wrong-dcp-profile-from-adobe

 

 

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VIP
Posts: 10,937
Registered: ‎12-07-2012

Re: Canon EOS 5DMarkIV

Are you sure you understand color space?

High end consumer cameras usually offer two choices for color space, sRGB and Adobe RGB.  sRGB is what most PC's and monitors can display.   sRGB doesn't cover some of the more vibrant and saturated shades that are possible with the camera and reproducable by your printer. That brings us to Adobe RGB. Adobe RGB is a larger color space than sRGB. It is big enough to hold colors that would be "clipped" in sRGB space.   Adobe RGB color space allows you to capture and reproduce more vibrant and saturated colors.

The sRGB/Adobe RGB selection on your camera applies to JPEG images only. If you are shooting raw, your raw images will not be altered or stored in any color space by your Mk IV..  You set the color space with your post editor or raw decoder.

EOS 1DX and 1D Mk IV, even less and less other stuff.
Occasional Contributor
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎07-19-2017

Re: Canon EOS 5DMarkIV

 

Open DPP, open a RAW, select sRGB/sRGB, save to .tif file.
You have made a file in sRGB color space with sRGB rendering intent.
Open this file in Photoshop convert to Adobe98. Save.
You have made now a file in Adobe98 color space with sRGB rendering intent.

 

Open DPP, open a RAW, select sRGB/AdobeRGB, save to .tif file.
You have made a file in Adobe98 color space with AdobeRGB renderint intent.
Open this file in Photoshop, convert to sRGB. Save.

You have made now a file in sRGB color space with a Adobe98 rendering intent.

 

So, for two files with the same colors space, sRGB, you can have a rendering intent with "sRGB look", or with "AdobeRGB look".

 

The problem with Camera Raw in Photoshop, is that the DCP Profile for old Canon Camera (before Q3 2014), where made to renders the raw data like in an "sRGB rendering intent". And the DCP Profiles for new Canon Camera (after Q3 2014), are made to renders the raw data like in an "AdobeRGB rendering intent".

In the comments, in this link :

 

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/5d-mark-iv-wrong-dcp-profile-from-adobe

 

I have made a demonstration, with a step by step guide on how to see these differences.
It's not about display calibration... It's about tone mapping / rendering intent.

I know my words are approximate, by there is no specification about how converters works etc.

 

And, take 5min to do the steps, you will understand what i meant. (yes it takes only 5min to do all the steps).

Thank you for your answer btw Smiley Happy

Occasional Contributor
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎07-19-2017

Re: Canon EOS 5DMarkIV

[ Edited ]

 


I have made some research to make my words better about all of that.
The thing is about "tone mapping".
Tone mapping is the conversion from a gamma to an other gamma.
That's what Raw Converters do ! They convert a Linear raw data (Linear Gamma Tone curve) to the gamma of the space colors you chose.

For example :

DPP let us choose between sRGB and AdobeRGB colorspace.
And so, if you compare a RAW opened in sRGB colorspace in DPP and a raw converted in AdobeRGB in DPP, this last will get stronger shadows.
It's because while you convert Linear Gamma to sRGB, you get "lighter" shadows than Linear Gamma to AdobeRGB.
AdobeRGB / Adobe98 is a Gamma 2.2, sRGB not. 

https://gamedevdaily.io/the-srgb-learning-curve-773b7f68cf7a

 

This link explains technically the relation between Linear / Gamma 2.2 / sRGB and the conversion.

https://www.shadertoy.com/view/lsd3zN

This link shows how gradient colors are displayed in Linear, Linear converted to sRGB, Linear converted to Gamma2.2 (Adobe98).

The main thing is that Adobe has always done a tone mapping from Linear to sRGB.

For each Camera BEFORE 2014, the DCP Profiles provided by Adobe are doing a RAW conversion From Linear to sRGB Gamma.

I have opened these 29 profiles : D30, 1D, 1Ds, D60, 300D, 10D, 1D Mark II, 1Ds Mark II, 350D, 20D, 5D, 30D, 400D, 1D Mark III, 1Ds Mark III, 40D, 450D, 50D, 5D Mark II, 7D, 1D Mark IV, 550D, 60D, 600D, 1100D, 1DX, 5D Mark III, 70D, 6D.
And they are all EOS camera BEFORE 2014, and the tonal curve in the DCP Profiles all starts with the same way :

 

DNG Curve_5DMarkIII.png

For each Camera AFTER 2014, the DCP Profiles provided by Adobe are doing a RAW conversion From Linear to Gamma 2.2.

I have opened these 5 profiles : 5DS, 5DSR, 80D, 1DX Mark II, 77D. And they are all EOS camera AFTER 2014, and the tonal curve in the DCP Profiles all starts with the same way :

 

DNG_Curve_5DMarkIV.png

 

You can open DCP Profiles with DNG Profile Editor, and select the base tonal curve for each DCP profiles.

 

29 Canon EOS cameras are made with a smooth starting curve (flat look , Linear to sRGB gamma conversion).

5 Canon EOS cameras are made with a strong starting curve (strong look, Linear to AdobeRGB / gamma 2.2 conversion).

 

DPP whatever the chosen colors space will operate the good conversion.
While Adobe was always making the tone mapping with "Linear to sRGB" for a while. Like if you selected the sRGB colors space in DPP. But now they are making the tone mapping with "Linear to Gamma 2.2 / Adobe98"... Like if you selected AdobeRGB in DPP.

The problem is... I prefer the "Linear to sRGB gamma" conversion which is more flat...
If you compare a raw taken by a 5DMarkIII and a raw taken with a 5DMarkIV, in Camera Raw Camera Standard profile, you will clearly see that the Raw From 5DMarkIV gets more strong shadows than 5DMarkIII.
It's only because of the Tone Mapping.

In the comments on the post in the feedback forums, i have made some comparisons from raw taken by 5DMarkIII / 5DMarkIV  opened in CR/PS, and i have put the light's histogram (represention of the Gamma Curve so !) and you can clearly see that shots taken by 5DMarkIV are more clipped in the shadows, more than the shot taken with 5DMarkIII. And if you takes shots in low-key or under exposed (exposed to the left), the difference became very strong.

The more the raw is dark, the more the difference will be. And this is because of the tone mapping (link at the begining of this post explains that well).

So, my Hope here is that Canon check all what i'm saying, and maybe to talk with Adobe with the "before/after 2014" issue.

 

Voilà ^^

Occasional Contributor
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎07-19-2017

Re: Canon EOS 5DMarkIV

[ Edited ]

To add more things :

 

Article on the WEB about Tone Mapping :

Tom Forsyth - "The sRGB Learning Curve"

Shadertoy - "sRGB Demo"

 

 

raw files from 5DMarkIII
raw files from 5DMarkIV

i have opened these two raw files like this :

 

5DMarkIII - DPP - sRGB

 

5DMarkIII_DPP_1_sRGB.jpg


5DMarkIII - DPP - AdobeRGB

5DMarkIII_DPP_2_AdobeRGB.jpg

 

5DMarkIII - Camera Raw - Camera Standard (srgb gamma)

5DMARKIII_CR_1_Original_DCP_Profile.jpg

 

5DMarkIII - Camera Raw - Camera Standard edited with the 5DMarkIV base tonal curve (gamma 2.2)

5DMARKIII_CR_2_Custom_DCP_Profile_(5DMarkIV_Curve).jpg

 

 

 

 

5DMarkIV - DPP - sRGB

5DMarkIV_DPP_1_sRGB.jpg

 

5DMarkIV - DPP AdobeRGB

5DMarkIV_DPP_2_AdobeRGB.jpg


5DMarkIV - Camera Raw - Camera Standard (this time, it seems to be a gamma 2.2 !)

5DMARKIV_CR_1_Original_DCP_Profile.jpg

 

5DMarkIV - Camera Raw - Camera Standard edited with the 5DMarkIII base tonal curve (srgb Gamma)

5DMARKIV_CR_2_Custom_DCP_Profile_(5DMarkIII_Curve).jpg

 

 

 

When you look at the different histogram, we can clearly see where the shadows are stronger :
5DMarkIII - DPP - AdobeRGB

5DMarkIII - Camera Raw - Camera Standard edited

5DMarkIV - DPP AdobeRGB

5DMarkIV - Camera Raw - Camera Standard


and where the shadows are lighter :

5DMarkIII - DPP - sRGB

5DMarkIII - Camera Raw - Camera Standard

5DMarkIV - DPP - sRGB

5DMarkIV - Camera Raw - Camera Standard edited

And this shows that for Camera Standard for old cameras (here 5DMarkIII) shadows were lighter than newer cameras (here 5DMarkIV).
And with all of these information about tone mapping, we can clearly say that adobe has moved from sRGB tonal mapping to Gamma2.2 tonal mapping.

 

 

Occasional Contributor
Posts: 5
Registered: ‎07-19-2017

Re: Canon EOS 5DMarkIV

[ Edited ]

I have edited DCP Profiles for latest Nikon camera and old Nikon cameras, and they are all edited with the tone mapping from Linear to sRGB Gamma.
I don't know why for Canon cameras, they are performing the tone mapping with Linear to Gamma 2.2 conversion...

 

Esteemed Contributor
Posts: 4,897
Registered: ‎06-25-2014

Re: Canon EOS 5DMarkIV


@efreetcs wrote:

I have edited DCP Profiles for latest Nikon camera and old Nikon cameras, and they are all edited with the tone mapping from Linear to sRGB Gamma.
I don't know why for Canon cameras, they are performing the tone mapping with Linear to Gamma 2.2 conversion...

 


Do the settings on the "Color management" tab in the DPP 4 "Preferences" menu have a bearing on all this?

Bob
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA
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