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7DII and landscape photography

tinwhistle
Enthusiast

I'm thinking of updating to the 7DII. In the course of on line research I've seen it mentioned that this camera excells at most everythinmg except landscapes. Anyone out there have this experience?? Thanks for any input...

 

Chris

2 ACCEPTED SOLUTIONS

Peter
Authority
Authority
The comparsion or not, old 7D has no good noise pattern at low ISO. Especially in a blue sky. The pattern is visible. New 7DII has not this noise pattern. Neither do 40D.

View solution in original post


@tinwhistle wrote:

I hate to confess this, especially since I've been "taking pictures" for about 60 years and even been paid to take some, but I have no idea of what the following statements mean: dual ISO, dynamic range, moire, aliasing.

 

tinwhistle    aka   Chris


Dual ISO isn't really a universally understood term even among hard-core photographers.  It was a trick created by the authors of Magic Lantern who used it in an attempt to reduce the amount of digital "noise" in an image shot at high ISO.

 

Dynamic range:  If you meter a subject and it turns out you realize you can get a good exposure of this subject at (I'll make up something) ISO 100, f/8, and 1/400th second exposure, it turns out that if your subject will still probably be fine even if over-exposed or under-exposed by just 1 stop.  Most cameras would have no problems with up to 3 stops in either driection (even a camera that isn't thought of as being very good).    When you shoot some types of scenes (landscapes are noted for this) you can meter the brightest object in your scene (say... some puffy white clouds in the sky) and also the darkest element in your scene (the tree-trunks in the forest shadows at the end of a meadow).  If you expose for the puffy cloud, the tree-trunks are just black.  If you expose for the tree-trunks in shadow the sky is blown out.     So you try to expose for the middle and HOPE that your camera sensor has enough "dynamic range" that neither the puffy clouds nor the shadowy areas are clipped or blown out.  Some camera sensors do better at this than others.    That's the idea behind "dynamic range" -- how far can you go (under or over) your intended exposure without losing details that get clipped or blown out.

 

Moiré:  If you lay a one piece of screen on top of another piece of screen and then slightly rotate the top piece (so that the rows and columns of wires are not parallel) you'll get an interesting pattern.  That pattern is called "moiré".  See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moiré_pattern

 

This wasn't a problem with film because the film isn't made up of light-sensitive material all in neat little rows and columns.  It was a chemical coating in which each molecure was more or less randomly positioned.    But since digital cameras DO use light-sensitive photo-sites which are neatly aligned in rows and columns, you can get a moiré pattern if your subject has a pattern which is almost-but-not-quite, parallel to the sensor rows and columns.

 

To combat this problem, the camera employs a "low pass filter".  The filter very slightly softens the sharpness of the image and this combats the moiré pattern.  This slight softening is sometimes referred to as anti-aliasing.  

 

Consider that the reason you do NOT see moiré pattern with film is because the surface coating on film is composed of molecures of light-sensitive material which are randomly distributed and not in neat rows and columns... and you only see the pattern when one pattern of rows and columns is placed on another pattern of rows and columns -- but without perfect alignment.   Therefore, if we slightly degrade the perfection of our rows and columns in just one of the layers, we wouldn't see the moiré pattern.  This is basically what the low-pass filter is doing.

 

Aliasing is the notion of getting a jagged edge when, in fact, you know the subject you photographed has a straight edge.  This effect is particularly noticeable at low resolution.  In images it is also known as "spatial aliasing".  See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliasing

 

The 5Ds r (specifically with the "r" suffix) removes the low-pass (anti-aliasing) filter which allows for a sharper final image... but at the risk that should you photograph something with a neat row/column pattern (anything with parallel or vertical lines close together) you can get the moiré pattern.    Nature and lanscape photographers are less likely to encounter this.  Fasion photographers, on the other hand, probably encounter this problem in fabrics fairly often.  Canon makes the camera both with and without the filter and the photographer can make their own (hopefully informed) decision as to which they prefer.

 

Tim Campbell
5D III, 5D IV, 60Da

View solution in original post

31 REPLIES 31

The other reason why the 7DII is not considered as a great scenic camera (despite it's outstanding AF capability) and that nobody has mentionned yet in this thread, is that its Canon APS-C sensor has a slightly less dynamic range from ISO100 to ISO400 than latest Sony APS-C sensors used in other DSLR camera manufacturers.

 

This means that the camera will capture a smaller range of tones by shot and will have more tendency to underexpose or overexpose from ISO100 to ISO400.

Personally, this is not very relevant to me as a sport shooter (there are other important factors on image quality and camera capabilities), but many experts mentions this weakness found on APS-C DSLR Canon cameras.

Yes, but same dynamic range as 1DX has at ISO 100, 11,8 EVs (dxomark.com).

 

And about the older 7D, take a look at the sky and the pattern. Above ISO 800 and it is not visible anymore.

 

Namnlös.jpg

OK, but other DSLR's are well over 14 Evs!

I know that the 7DM2 has improved over 7D in terms of noise but unfortunately not much in the dynamic range area.

Peter
Authority
Authority
Correct. Canon is not at the top. 5Ds 12.4 EVs, 6D 12.1 EVs. You need to shoot dual ISO to get the same dynamic range as Sony sensor has.

Yes, but you will also gain moiré and aliasing using dual ISO mode.

Ricci.

I hate to confess this, especially since I've been "taking pictures" for about 60 years and even been paid to take some, but I have no idea of what the following statements mean: dual ISO, dynamic range, moire, aliasing.

 

tinwhistle    aka   Chris


@tinwhistle wrote:

I hate to confess this, especially since I've been "taking pictures" for about 60 years and even been paid to take some, but I have no idea of what the following statements mean: dual ISO, dynamic range, moire, aliasing.

 

tinwhistle    aka   Chris


Dual ISO isn't really a universally understood term even among hard-core photographers.  It was a trick created by the authors of Magic Lantern who used it in an attempt to reduce the amount of digital "noise" in an image shot at high ISO.

 

Dynamic range:  If you meter a subject and it turns out you realize you can get a good exposure of this subject at (I'll make up something) ISO 100, f/8, and 1/400th second exposure, it turns out that if your subject will still probably be fine even if over-exposed or under-exposed by just 1 stop.  Most cameras would have no problems with up to 3 stops in either driection (even a camera that isn't thought of as being very good).    When you shoot some types of scenes (landscapes are noted for this) you can meter the brightest object in your scene (say... some puffy white clouds in the sky) and also the darkest element in your scene (the tree-trunks in the forest shadows at the end of a meadow).  If you expose for the puffy cloud, the tree-trunks are just black.  If you expose for the tree-trunks in shadow the sky is blown out.     So you try to expose for the middle and HOPE that your camera sensor has enough "dynamic range" that neither the puffy clouds nor the shadowy areas are clipped or blown out.  Some camera sensors do better at this than others.    That's the idea behind "dynamic range" -- how far can you go (under or over) your intended exposure without losing details that get clipped or blown out.

 

Moiré:  If you lay a one piece of screen on top of another piece of screen and then slightly rotate the top piece (so that the rows and columns of wires are not parallel) you'll get an interesting pattern.  That pattern is called "moiré".  See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moiré_pattern

 

This wasn't a problem with film because the film isn't made up of light-sensitive material all in neat little rows and columns.  It was a chemical coating in which each molecure was more or less randomly positioned.    But since digital cameras DO use light-sensitive photo-sites which are neatly aligned in rows and columns, you can get a moiré pattern if your subject has a pattern which is almost-but-not-quite, parallel to the sensor rows and columns.

 

To combat this problem, the camera employs a "low pass filter".  The filter very slightly softens the sharpness of the image and this combats the moiré pattern.  This slight softening is sometimes referred to as anti-aliasing.  

 

Consider that the reason you do NOT see moiré pattern with film is because the surface coating on film is composed of molecures of light-sensitive material which are randomly distributed and not in neat rows and columns... and you only see the pattern when one pattern of rows and columns is placed on another pattern of rows and columns -- but without perfect alignment.   Therefore, if we slightly degrade the perfection of our rows and columns in just one of the layers, we wouldn't see the moiré pattern.  This is basically what the low-pass filter is doing.

 

Aliasing is the notion of getting a jagged edge when, in fact, you know the subject you photographed has a straight edge.  This effect is particularly noticeable at low resolution.  In images it is also known as "spatial aliasing".  See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliasing

 

The 5Ds r (specifically with the "r" suffix) removes the low-pass (anti-aliasing) filter which allows for a sharper final image... but at the risk that should you photograph something with a neat row/column pattern (anything with parallel or vertical lines close together) you can get the moiré pattern.    Nature and lanscape photographers are less likely to encounter this.  Fasion photographers, on the other hand, probably encounter this problem in fabrics fairly often.  Canon makes the camera both with and without the filter and the photographer can make their own (hopefully informed) decision as to which they prefer.

 

Tim Campbell
5D III, 5D IV, 60Da

Many thanks to TCampbell.....Probably gave you carpal tunnel typing that information! However, you covered all the bases and I thank you.....

 

tinwhistle   aka   Chris

Peter
Authority
Authority

Correct ricci. What you gain in something you loose in something else. You will also loose resolution in the highlight/shadows.

 

Tinwhistle:

Dual ISO is two at the same time. Dynamic range is how much your camera can pick up before it clips the highlight or the shadows. You can make a image search at moire and aliasing to see how that looks like.

Examples of dual ISO you will find here

 

7898.CR2 has ISO 200.
7899.DNG har ISO 100/200. Take a look at the highlight between 7898 and 7899 and also keep your eyes on the roof and aliasing.

9398.CR2 has ISO 400.
9399.DNG has ISO 100/400.

9402.DNG has ISO 100/800.

 

Canon 7DII can´t shoot dual ISO.


@Peter wrote:

Correct ricci. What you gain in something you loose in something else. You will also loose resolution in the highlight/shadows.

 

Tinwhistle:

Dual ISO is two at the same time. Dynamic range is how much your camera can pick up before it clips the highlight or the shadows. You can make a image search at moire and aliasing to see how that looks like.

Examples of dual ISO you will find here

 

7898.CR2 has ISO 200.
7899.DNG har ISO 100/200. Take a look at the highlight between 7898 and 7899 and also keep your eyes on the roof and aliasing.

9398.CR2 has ISO 400.
9399.DNG has ISO 100/400.

9402.DNG has ISO 100/800.

 

Canon 7DII can´t shoot dual ISO.


Does any Canon camera have that capability? My 5D Mark III manual doesn't mention it. Despite being about Tinwhistle's age, and despite having owned several Canon DSLRs over the past nine years, I'd never heard of dual ISO either.

Bob
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA
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