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VIP
Posts: 11,528
Registered: ‎12-07-2012

Re: 5D MK IV exposure issues - HIGH ISO necessary... tried two different lenses

HDR with bright window.

 

333.jpg

222.jpg

 

...and combined.

111.jpg

EOS 1DX and 1D Mk IV and several lenses!
New Contributor
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎04-14-2018

Re: 5D MK IV exposure issues - HIGH ISO necessary... tried two different lenses

Thanks everyone. I wasn't necessarily trying to make those images quality in terms of HDR but rather just shot them to explore/show what seemed to me to be the need for high ISO in low light situations despite a wide aperture and slow shutter. I guess i'm confused how people can use a 50 1.4 at concerts with crazy inconsistent lighting and stop action without a flash if in the scenario I provided, though it isn't super bright in the room, I had to be at 1/10th...

Basically I bought this lens so that I would have the ability to take consistently sharp images, without flash at indoor events or for lifestyle shoots (like the indoor yoga session)

Here is a RAW crop of the in-studio yoga shoot: 1/100 f/4 ISO3200

I'm totally open to suggestions for software that works with noise, and also open to the idea that my expectations may be high? With the particular image below I addressed some of the noise in LR using the details panel and adjusting luminance and color noise reduction sliders...

 

To be fair most of my work has been done outside so moving into indoor spaces is bringing on a bit of a learning curve.

yogatestcrop.jpg

Honored Contributor
Posts: 5,044
Registered: ‎06-25-2014

Re: 5D MK IV exposure issues - HIGH ISO necessary... tried two different lenses

The picture of the Yoga class actually comes off looking a bit overexposed.

 

If you're new to indoor photography, don't overlook flash, particularly bounce flash. Bounce flash can often be a good answer in a moderate-sized room with relatively low ceilings. (Not so much in the City Council chamber I mentioned earlier.) I think I'd give it a try if I were you.

Bob
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA
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Posts: 11,528
Registered: ‎12-07-2012

Re: 5D MK IV exposure issues - HIGH ISO necessary... tried two different lenses

"Here is a RAW crop of the in-studio yoga shoot: 1/100 f/4 ISO3200"

 

Of course it is difficult to impossible to suggest settings for you without actually seeing the room you are shooting in.

However, I think most folks know how the average school gym is lighted.  I shoot in that environment a lot.  A whole lot !

Do you think your yoga room is similar?

 

My setting for this shot was f4, 1/160 and ISO 1600.  It looks like your yoga room is at least as well lighted.

 

_DX_1399.jpg

 

As Robert offered, your shot does look slightly over exposed.  Maybe not a full stop but it might be.  That would even out our settings if accurate.  This leads me to believe you are doing things correctly.  Just some final tweaking.

 

Always shoot Raw format. Get the exposure as close as you can (forget the other settings) and let the post editing do the rest.  I use LR but you can use the free DPP4 that came with your camera for post.

 

EOS 1DX and 1D Mk IV and several lenses!
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Esteemed Contributor
Posts: 3,816
Registered: ‎06-11-2013

Re: 5D MK IV exposure issues - HIGH ISO necessary... tried two different lenses

 

The yoga shot is overexposed.  Here's the histogram (I have an EXIF viewer plug-in installed in my Chrome browser that let's me right-click and view this for any image):

 

Screen Shot 2018-04-18 at 11.09.49 AM.png

 

Notice the histogram graph at the bottom shows lots of data all jammed up against the right-side of the graph?  This indicates heavy over-exposure.  But it helps to understand how to read a histogram.

 

The left-right direction of the graph indicates the brightness or tonality where the left side is complete "black" (zero light registering) and the right edge indicates complete "white" (the maximum value that the camera can record.  You can think of it as "100% bright" but the camera is either recording images in 8-bit JPEG or as 14-bit RAW (so the actual values are 0-255 for JPEG and 0-65535 for RAW).

 

The right side of this particular histogram shows lots of data jammed to the right.  The left side shows a thin red band up against the left side of the histogram ... indicating the "red" channel had some under-exposure.  

 

 

 

An easy way to help the image is to increase the light in the room so that the room brightness is nearly as bright as the outdoor brightness.   You can use a flash to do this... bounced off the ceiling (if the ceiling is white).  

 

Ideally you'd take a meter reading through the window to check the exposure.  It's ok that the light "outside" be on the bright side... you just don't want it blown out.  Then use the flash in E-TTL mode and angle the head up to the ceiling.  The flash should determine how much power it needs to correctly expose the shot based on the exposure YOU set on the camera (which is already set so that the outside wont be too bright.)

 

This should help create a more balanced exposure (at least balance w.r.t. light levels.)

 

HDR (High Dynamic Range) is another way to solve the problem... but works best if nothing in the image is moving.  This is because HDR is based on taking multiple images (at different exposures) and then combining the data.  All the exposures should have identical composition with nothing changing from frame to frame ... other than the exposure level.  If anything changed positions between frames it will result in "ghosting" of the HDR output.  (there are techniques to deal with the ghosting problem.)

 

In general, HDR usually works best for capturing a very wide dynamic range when nothing is changing between frames.

 

 

 

Tim Campbell
5D III, 5D IV, 60Da
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Registered: ‎12-07-2012

Re: 5D MK IV exposure issues - HIGH ISO necessary... tried two different lenses

"Notice the histogram graph at the bottom shows lots of data all jammed up against the right-side of the graph?  This indicates heavy over-exposure."

 

We both know that's not correct. Don't we?  Again an issue where the graph reader isn't coming to right conclusion. A graph that ends before it gets to either side is under or over exposure. Gaps on either end indicate you are missing information and your exposure needs to be shifted to not lose any detail.  His histogram extends completely to each side. A slight over exposure, possibly, or is it just a light colored subject? 

 

HDR for moving subjects may not be the answer but bracketing certainly is.  In some scenes it may be impossible to get a perfect histogram.

EOS 1DX and 1D Mk IV and several lenses!
Esteemed Contributor
Posts: 3,468
Registered: ‎02-17-2016

Re: 5D MK IV exposure issues - HIGH ISO necessary... tried two different lenses

[ Edited ]

@ebiggs1wrote:

"Notice the histogram graph at the bottom shows lots of data all jammed up against the right-side of the graph?  This indicates heavy over-exposure."

 

We both know that's not correct. Don't we?  Again an issue where the graph reader isn't coming to right conclusion. A graph that ends before it gets to either side is under or over exposure. Gaps on either end indicate you are missing information and your exposure needs to be shifted to not lose any detail.  His histogram extends completely to each side. A slight over exposure, possibly, or is it just a light colored subject? 

 


If the graph is bunched on the right side, there are a *lot* of pixels at 255,255,255 (Histograms are always based on the JPEG) and so have no information and so are overexposed. (It could be you want that overexposure because it is a window or something, but that is why we are photographers, not snapshooters, we make choices.)
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Posts: 11,528
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Re: 5D MK IV exposure issues - HIGH ISO necessary... tried two different lenses

"...we are photographers ... we make choices."

 

Amen!

EOS 1DX and 1D Mk IV and several lenses!
Esteemed Contributor
Posts: 3,816
Registered: ‎06-11-2013

Re: 5D MK IV exposure issues - HIGH ISO necessary... tried two different lenses

Ernie, I'm thinking you don't understand how to read and interpret a histogram.

 

There are a few times when I'm ok with a histogram clipping.  

 

1)  If you take a photo that includes the Sun and you aren't using a sufficient filter, there are many situations where (barring the use of a filter or a lot of atmospheric haze, etc.) there really isn't any exposure that wont result in the Sun being blown out.  That's a situation where you just have to accept it.

 

2)  If you take a photo of a predominantly dark (e.g. night) scene, you'll get a lot of shadows that will clip.  Shooting a high enough exposure to prevent the shadows from clipping would result in losing the highlights.

 

But this shot isn't either of those situations ... nor anything similar.

 

In this shot, the histogram consistently gets higher and higher values... until it hits the right edge of the graph and runs out of room. 

 

This indicates a high amount of not just very bright pixels... but clipped data that is unrecoverable.   In this image, the window, the shoulders and a bit of the faces at the leading edges are clipped.  The image appears to be over-exposed by possibly 2/3rds of a stop... possibly a full stop needed to avoid the clipping on the subjects. 

 

Use of a flash is probably the easiest way to fix the problem.  This brings the "indoor" exposure closer to the "outdoor" exposure and reduces the dynamic range needed for the shot.

 

Bracketing just shifts the exposure but doesn't help the dynamic range needed if you want to capture everything without clipping.  HDR can address the dynamic range without clipping but can have ghosting issues if anything moves from frame to frame.

 

 

 

The 5D IV does have a highlight tone priority feature will will try to protect against over-exposure (but can only do so much).  Basically it changes how ISO gain is applied to resist boosting highlights to the point of clipping... but mapping the tonality to preserve relative brightness.

 

Tim Campbell
5D III, 5D IV, 60Da
Frequent Contributor
Posts: 84
Registered: ‎01-30-2018

Re: 5D MK IV exposure issues - HIGH ISO necessary... tried two different lenses

[ Edited ]

Per usual, the answers from the more experienced photographers in this forum are packed with fantastic information! 

 

I am not at their level, so will share from a less informed perspective.  If nothing else, perhaps just to commiserate. 

 

Basically, you are saying that based on reviews, you thought your camera would be able to shoot lower ISO in low-light situations, thereby resulting in a "cleaner" (i.e. less noisy) image.  I've been there.  Oh, have I been there. 

 

I predominately shoot gymnastics for my daugthers at the "club" level, which is to say advanced levels before college.  This results in, to my knowledge, some of the most challenging sports, stop-action, shooting out there. Horrific, I mean horrific, lighting.  Fast moving girls twisting and turning in all directions.  and unifoms that blend in oh-so-perfectly with the both the background and with other gymnasts who are constantly walking in front of, and behind, the subject -- all of which pushes any continuous AF (Servo mode in Canons) to their limit.  

 

FWIW, here are some things I did/do technically and emotionally, in no particular order of importance... 

 

1) Comparison.  At some point, if you're super ruminating like I am, and just can't get it out of your head that your camera isn't performing well, hunt down a friend or fellow photographer and have them shoot one day with you to compare results.  Or, if you want to spend money, rent a different body brand.  Whatever.  Just find a way to get real-world comparisons in front of you instead of manufacturing a comparator in your mind's eye.  The latter just drove me crazy.  When I shot next to a comparable Nikon user, I felt better as I understood the concrete differences.  One of your examples was "f/1.4 1/30th and ISO 2500" ... if you can bring along a friend (or borrow/rent a camera/lens) and shoot those same parameters from the same shoot point, you'll at least know if you're WAAAY out of the ballpark or just minor differences.  

 

2) If point (1) yields the "OK, I know it's at least not BROKEN" level of confidence, just stop comparing altogether and work with what you have.  I just love watching an experienced photographer work with her/his gear.  It's like a true artisan who knows the tool inside and out.  Allows them to focus on the picture, not the mechanics, once they get really good at knowing their gear's characteristics. 

 

3) If you want lower ISO in the yoga shots, work on slowing down your shutter speed and catching the movement at it's natural "stop point" rather than using a faster shutter speed and trying to stop the motion at any point during the movement.  In gymnastics, the example would be a beam routine where the gymnast jupms and splits her legs in midair.  At a point in the jump, the legs are actually motionless as they reach their apex.  And, they slow down considerably as they're nearing the apex.  With some practice, I found I can slow down my shutter speed and nail a good shot more often than not.  The way you describe your yoga shooting, it sounds like you have plenty of opportunities, which means you get to experiment a lot throughout the shoot.  In gymnastics, when it's my daughter I'm shooting, you don't have that luxury!  So I practice a lot with the gymnasts before her.  

 

4) Learn to accept some noise in the picture.  Unless it's for a professional magazine or something, I find that I am WAAAAY more obsessed with noise than the people actually using, or enjoying, the pictures.  Personally, I find Canon's noise more appealing aesthetically than some other brands, but that's pure preference.  In the end, so many athletes just want the great shot and don't even mention or notice the noise in a picture that drives me crazy.  Also, it seems the vast majority of viewing happens on devices with small to moderate screens, or with the image reduced in size to fit on a webpage, and for those, the impact of noise is reduced even further (especially the levels you're talking about, which for the better cameras, really aren't that high).  

 

5) The noise-reduction I use in Lightroom is quite good and while it will soften the image, goes to my point above.  You will care a lot more than most of your viewers, unless you are a professional and they are paying you top dollar for pin-sharp clarity.  And if that's the case, you need to go all-in with proper lighting, off-camera flashes, etc., etc.  

 

6) Given how much I spend on the body, I feel more comfortable with Canon lenses.  I've heard from enough pros that it does matter, and I don't want to leave that kind of thing to chance.  In for a penny, in for a pound, as they say. 

 

Again, I am nowhere near the level of many participants on this thread so remember my opinions are really novice in comparison.  I'd listen to the pros! :-) . Just wanted to share my experiences as I have personally dealt with the kind of nagging questions you reported in the initial post.  

 

Good luck! 

 

 

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