01-03-2014 09:23 AM
so I am a "fuzzy donuts" nut..
Mirror / reflex lenses... How short do they get ? 55mm ?100mm ? 200mm ?
Solved! Go to Solution.
01-03-2014 05:10 PM
I'm wondering why you would be interested in "short" focal length mirror lenses.
These lenses fulfill a very special purpose and you would normally not want to use one for general purpose photography.
A "mirror" lens (technically these are "catadioptric" lenses which means it uses a combination of lenses and mirrors. The front piece of clear glass is a "corrector plate" and is technically a lens even though the corretion is minor.
These lenses have no ability to communicate with the camera -- they have a fixed focal ratio which cannot be changed. They are manual focus only.
They commonly come in 400mm, 500mm, or 800mm focal lengths.
When a lens uses glass elements, the element works by bending light. Whenever you bend light by passing it THROUGH a lens element (as opposed to using a mirror), the light refracts based on it's wavelength. Red light does not bend as much as blue light for example. This means a simple single lens element cannot focus all wavelengths of light to the same focal plane. To correct for this, additional lens elements are included -- often MANY lens elements.
When lenses get longer, the amount of light making it to through decreases -- and to compensate, the lens needs to have a much larger physical diameter. When using lens elements, these elements also need to be physically larger. As the lens elements get larger, the prism effect which causes dispersion (different colored wavelengths bend different amounts) becomes even more extreme. This is why VERY long focal length lenses become VERY expensive.
"Mirror" lenses side-step the whole problem by bouncing the light off mirrors... there is no dispersion when bouncing a light off a mirror (you are not technically passing light "through" a lens element. This drops the cost of lens construction dramatically!
Mirror lenses typically just have "t-mounts" and you have to buy a T-adapter for your camera. As mentioned previously... you cannot adjust the focal ratio and the lens is manual focus only. There is no communication whatsoever between camera and lens (the camera behaves as if it has no lens attached.)
The out-of-focus areas of the image will blur based on the shape of the aperture opening... which for a mirror lens is actually donut-shaped. This means out of focus areas have black spots in the middle -- resulting in a very unpleasant quality in the out-of-focus areas.
An 800mm mirror lens might cost $200 (more or less) and you'd need the T-adapter (perhaps another $15-30 depending on who makes it.) An 800mm lens actually designed for an EOS mount (with autofocus, aperture control, etc.) would cost substantially more (likely thousands).
Due to the inability to change focal ratios, the manual focus constratint, and the lack of auto-focus... there is a considerable handicap in terms of shooting speed and flexibility. You would not likely want to use one as an every-day lens.
01-11-2014 11:40 AM
Thanks,
Your reply to my querry was quite informative and easy to understand (no techno-jargon). I have a sigma 600mm on its way and am looking forward to playing with it. Since you seem to be well versed in the lens department, anybe you can enlighten me on a subjec that has me puzzled...ie... Is there any way to (stop-down) reduce the aperature in a mirror lens in order to expand the depth of field a bit or is that just a pipe-dream I have? I have seen nothing with a rating of f/8 or lower (4s, 6s, etc.) Is it possible to achive a deeper DOF in a mirror lens ? (pardon my innocence but I have an inquisitave mind...some would say I think like a 3year old).
Thanks again for your well written reply to my post.
Bruce
01-11-2014 04:25 PM
There is nothing internal to the lens or camera. You would have to make a mask to fit over the front of the lens.
01-12-2014 09:35 AM
The lens will remain an f8. The only thing you can do, is limit the amount of light the camera sees but the lens will always be an f8. Adding an ND filter will just make the image darker, it will not change the depth of field. F-stop is the ratio of the focal length to aperture diameter. F-stop is not a measure of light coming in, it is the measure of the focal length to the aperture.
01-12-2014 11:13 AM - edited 01-13-2014 12:08 PM
"Is there any way to (stop-down) reduce the aperature in a mirror lens in order to expand the depth of field a bit"
In the case of most mirror lenses, no.
There is no way to stop them down for increased depth of field. As others noted, you can reduce the amount of light reaching the camera with a neutral density filter (usually rear mounted or fitted in a drawer in the rear of the lens), but that doesn't change DOF at all.
Two exceptions I'm aware of were the Konica Hexanon 1000mm f8 and 2000mm f11 mirror lenses from the mid-1970s. They were both fitted with a disk of Waterhouse stops that allowed the aperture to be changed. I believe they offered as small as f32 or f45 apertures.
In case you are unfamiliar with them, Waterhouse stops are simply a series of precisely-sized holes, each bored in a piece of sheet metal, that were individually placed behind or within a lens via a slot to effect a different size aperture. Waterhouse stops were used with barrel lenses prior to variable apertures and leaf shutters. If interested, there's more into about Waterhouse stops here. and about making a set if them for a vintage lens here.
At least theoretically, you might be able to make something similar for any lens lacking an aperture.
The two Hexanons have a series of these stops inside, all arranged on a metal disk, so that different size apertures could be dialed into place. They were also somewhat unusual using a bellows focusing mechanism behind the main bulk of the lens. Unfortunately, both lenses are long discontinued, sold for the equivalent of a small car when they were new, and now are quite rare. Best estimates are that a few dozen of the Hexanon 1000mm were made and sold. They remain fairly valuable, a friend of mine just sold a very complete and near mint 1000mm for more than $2000 US.
It is believed that only two of the 2000mm were made and none was ever sold. One was in a camera museum and the other was last seen displayed in the Konica-Minolta headquarters, before the corporation's camera business was sold to Sony (around 2006, if memory serves).
There may be some other mirror lenses that used similar arrangements to allow changes to f-stop and depth of field, but I'm not aware of any.
***********
Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7D(x2), 50D(x3), some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & PRINTROOM
01-10-2014 10:58 AM
Back in the day, most everybody made a mirror lens for their cameras.
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