topic Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem in Speedlite Flashes

Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

Solo — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 11:08:07 GMT

My speedlite has recently started to produce underexposed photos in E-TTL mode. Compared with previous photos the difference is about 2/3 - 1 full stop.

I have conducted a number of tests using my EOS 40D and a 24 - 105 EF f4/L IS USM lens.

I have used fully-charged batteries in both the camera and the speedlite (both alkaline and NiMH in the flash). I have checked the exposure compensation and flash exposure compensation settings as well as all other camera menu settings and the custom functions in both the camera and speedlite. All is in order and there is no conflict between the camera and the speedlite.

I shoot in RAW and as a test I have taken a number of photos in manual, Tv and Av modes, both without flash and using the camera's on-board flash. All were well-exposed (with no exposure or flash exposure compensation).

I tested the speedlite's recycling time on full power several times - about 5 seconds. So, it seems that the batteries were working well.

I then conducted a number of tests in manual, Tv and Av modes at various shutter, aperture and ISO settings to compare the on-board flash with the speedlite's performance in E-TTL mode. Each of the photos taken with the on-board flash was well-exposed with a good histogram. Each comparitive photo with the speedlite was under-exposed, with a poor histogram and smaller file size. With some experimentation, it was necessary to set a flash exposure compensation of +2/3 to + 1 stop to obtain results broadly comparable to the on-board flash.

However, this workaround did not produce satisfactory results for subject distances greater than 20 feet (speedlite only), even at high ISO and slow shutter speeds. The output of the speeedlite was far too low. These tests were all carried out indoors.

I then conducted tests with the speedlite in manual mode with the output set to full. At a range of shutter speeds, apertures and ISO settings the photos were completely blown out. The same result was obtained with the speedlite in manual and with high-speed sync selected if the shutter speed was at or below 1/250 second (the max shutter speed setting available for the on-board flash).

As a workaround I set the speedlite to manual with high-speed sync and set shutter speeds faster than 1/250 second and

tried exposures at various subject distances. Broadly, the high-speed sync kicked in. I have not yet checked performance at subject distances greater than 30 feet but full exposure was obtained in all the tests so far,(mostly better with flash exposure compensation of -1/3). However, depending on ambient light, autofocus was sometimes impossible.

From these tests, it seems that the camera works well, that the speedlite is able to generate full output and that in manual/high-sync mode it will produce correct exposures with high shutter settings.

Whilst both workarounds - E-TTL mode with flash exposure compensation and manual/high-speed sync - do work, some experimentation is required and both have their drawbacks. There are times when I will wish to shoot with the speedlite in manual but, for the most part, I have been satisfied with the results in E-TTL mode and I wish to be able to restore my speedlite to full working order.

I wonder if anyone can throw light on the fault (sensor/transistor???) and the remedy.

I am sorry to have provided so much detail but I wanted to avoid unnecessary questions, or solutions that I have already tried. Any help from members who are aware of this problem would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

ebiggs1 — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 14:50:25 GMT

Well...............I don't know if I followed all that but instead of trying different settings I suggest you set the camera back to factory defaults and try again. It is always best to go back to square one instead of trying different settings. You may have something set you forgot about. Go back to default and try again.

Also, dump the rechargeable batteries and get fresh brand new AA's. Rechargeables in a flash is not a good idea.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

Solo — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 15:12:57 GMT

Many thanks for the suggestion. I did try that initially, both for the camera and the speedlite. The results were the same.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

Solo — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 15:23:48 GMT

P.S. As for batteries, I use Energizer Precision NiMH. Whilst they are rated at 1.2 volts they retain the voltage even as power is used up, which is not the case with alkalines. And recycling is very fast with the NiMH batteries. I remove the batteries when the speedlite is not in use and I've never had an issue with over-heating. Maybe I'm not taking enough photos; need to get out more!

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

ebiggs1 — Wed, 12 Feb 2014 16:48:20 GMT

Some Energizer rechargeable AA batteries come built in with what they call “PTC” (built in thermal protection). Once the batteries hit around 25-30 flashes the thermal protection kicks in and limits the battery output.

I do mot recommend rechargeable in any flash. A fresh set of alkaline and/or lithium is best.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

amfoto1 — Thu, 13 Feb 2014 22:51:57 GMT

"dump the rechargeable batteries and get fresh brand new AA's. Rechargeables in a flash is not a good idea."

Sorry, but this is completely incorrect. I've used both extensively and decent quality rechargeable AAs will give you faster recycling and more shots per charge than you'll get with alkalines. I only use alkalines when I just need a few shots... or as a last resort after draining all the 50+ rechargeables I've got (including quite a few of the Energizers). I don't use lithiums because they are too expensive.

Solo, I answered your questions in your other post here.

***********
Alan Myers

San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7D(x2), 50D(x3), some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & PRINTROOM

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

TCampbell — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 05:49:28 GMT

Do use rechargeables. AA alkalines will cycle slower (and ultimately single-use batteries are more expensive.)

I prefer Sanyo Eneloops -- these are particularly good if the flash can sit unused for a while between uses. Eneloops are "Low Self Discharge" (LSD) batteries. Once charged, they can sit for a full year and still have 90% of the original charge remaining (when you buy them they are actually pre-charged because they are so good about retaining a charge.)

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

ebiggs1 — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 14:41:31 GMT

"I tested the speedlite's recycling time on full power several times - about 5 seconds. So, it seems that the batteries were working well."

The problem with using rechargeable on any equipment that isn't working properly, is you never know if it is the device or the batteries. It is the same even when it is the camera that is suspect. The first thing to replace is the batteries with known good ones.

As a amateur or hobbyists I guess rechargeable are fine but as a pro, who has time to monitor 50+ batteries to make sure they are charged and good? Then keep track of them at a shoot? Not for me and I still do not recommend rechargeable to anybody. I am retired now but even now all my equipment gets brand new batteries at each shoot. Too risky.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

TCampbell — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 15:08:28 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"I tested the speedlite's recycling time on full power several times - about 5 seconds. So, it seems that the batteries were working well."

The problem with using rechargeable on any equipment that isn't working properly, is you never know if it is the device or the batteries. It is the same even when it is the camera that is suspect. The first thing to replace is the batteries with known good ones.
As a amateur or hobbyists I guess rechargeable are fine but as a pro, who has time to monitor 50+ batteries to make sure they are charged and good? Then keep track of them at a shoot? Not for me and I still do not recommend rechargeable to anybody. I am retired now but even now all my equipment gets brand new batteries at each shoot. Too risky.

That's why I'd use "low self discharge" batteries. Once you charge them, you can generally depend on the fact that they'll be fully charged and ready for use (they still maintain 90% of their charge after sitting for a full year). Regular rechargeables can lose that much just sitting for a day.

The strobe itself is powered by capacitors in the flash. The batteries build up the charge in the capacitors. The better the batteries, the faster the capacitors will recycle -- but regardless of how long it takes, once you get the "ready" indicator, the flash is ready to fire.

Alkalines decrease their power output as they drain. Many (probably most) rechargeable technologies tend to put out a near-consistent power output until they run out of power and then have a huge drop-off in power. This means rechargeables tend to give you faster recycle times throughout the day (but it also means they can die pretty much without warning... you know it's time to swap your alkalines when it's taking 10-15 seconds for the flash to recycle.) The point here is that as long as you have fresh replacements ready to go (and you would regardless of if you're using single-use vs. rechargeables) the rechargable batteries tend to give better performance.

I think you might be surprised at the number of pros who rely on rechargeables. I started stumbling across guys who would give the "what's in my bag" list and found that many of them will point out that they use rechargeable batteries for their strobes and they'll tell you what brand they use (that's how I found out about Sanyo Eneloop batteries, btw. I had never heard of them before that.)

I use a battery storage caddy ("Storacell" by a Powerpax) and it's designed to let you put batteries into the holder either +tip up or down. So I put them in with the postive tip facing up when they are charged. I pull a fresh set of charged cells (I know they are charged because the tip is "up") and then put the dead batteries in tip "down", so I know those are the cells that need to be recharged when I'm back home. Incidentally... I use a "smart" charger (La Crosse BC1000). With the smart charger, I can actually charge just ONE battery at a time if I need to (the battery in the Canon GPS is a single AA but most chargers insist that batteries by charged in "pairs" so this gets me around that problem or having to wait to go through 2 batteries before I can recharge them.) Also you can set the amount of power applied during the recharge. Fast chargers are stressful on the battery. If I'm not in a hurry, I set a fairly slow charge rate so that it takes all night to bring them back up... but I can set a charge rate that will bring them back up pretty quickly if I want.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

ebiggs1 — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 20:30:05 GMT

I don't, or I should say didn't, have the time to keep refreshing batteries and go through all the maintenance that they require.

I need batteries that work when I want them and when they die I replace them with new AA's. Plus making sure I get back home with the dead ones. Way more safer to just get new ones and discard as needed.

Like I say if you are a hobbyists or amateur, I suppose rechargeables are OK, I guess. But when I am under the gun, they are not for me and I don't recommend them to others.

I have to admit I have never tried or used Eneloops. Maybe they are better but you still have all the maintenance. I just don't see "busy" pros doing it. Too much wasted effort for pennies. We never used them at Hallmark.

I'll ask around my buddies this weekend and see if I am still in the Dark Ages, or something.

BTW, I do have external battery packs for my old 283's and 285's. They work great. I don't have or even know if Canon makes one for the 580's.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

Solo — Fri, 14 Feb 2014 22:04:17 GMT

Thanks to everyone for your interest. I've resolved the speedlite issue.

I use low-discharge NiMH batteries and found their performance superior to alkalines.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

amfoto1 — Mon, 17 Feb 2014 16:16:44 GMT

"...BTW, I do have external battery packs for my old 283's and 285's. They work great. I don't have or even know if Canon makes one for the 580's..."

Yes, Canon offers CP-E4 auxiliary battery pack for 550EX, 580EX, 600EX flashes. The earlier versions (CP-E, CP-E2 and CP-E3) all also work fine with any of those flashes. There have been various improvements to the battery packs over the years, but they all put 6 or 8 additional AA batteries at the flash's disposal (the flash still needs to have 4 AAs installed as usual, too). They make for faster recycling and many additional shots.

I shoot professionally and rechargeable AAs make for a lot of savings, after the initial purchase and setup costs. I don't find it any more of a problem to recharge a bunch of AAs, than I do recharging the LP-E6s (or whatever) that power the cameras themselves. Over the years I've accumulated enough chargers that I can recharge overnight sufficient AAs for a full day's shoot. But I also keep a bunch of alkaline AAs handy, just in case.

***********
Alan Myers

San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7D(x2), 50D(x3), some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & PRINTROOM

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

digital — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 02:13:45 GMT

Good thread. I ased alkaline batteries at one time but when I got more serious with flash my local mom and pop camera shop explained this to me. They also mentioned the Alkalines not only recycle slower but do not have the power low discharge batteries have. That may have been mentioned as well. After getting new rechargeables I never looked back.

Also it is a good idea to get a good quality recharger that conditions the batteries.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

ebiggs1 — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 15:04:30 GMT

I did speak with two of my full time pro buddies last weekend. Well one was by email. These are guys that make 100% of their income from their camera. It puts groceries on the table. Likely nobody on this forum is in that situation.

One said, "No way." Actually that isn't a direct quote. You can add the explicative.

But the other told me he had switched. It was not Eneloop but was some other brand that I have quickly forgot. I'll have to see him again. He said these charge in two hours but will quick charge in an hour.

For now I will stay with my use of regular AA's. I just don't want the extra effort of another thing to keep track of.

Right now I have eight camera batteries to make sure are charged and in good condition. Adding 16-20 AA's to that mix is just something I don't want. Especially when you are talking about pennies. Plus the PITB of making sure you get back home with all of them.

And if you have a malfunctioning flash, like all this started out, I firmly recommend you get a brand new set of regular AA's to make sure it is not the batteries. So, dump the rechargeables.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

Solo — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 15:59:11 GMT

Interesting, but not surprising to see strongly-held but opposing viewpoints.

I think I will stick with rechargeables. "Chacun a son gout" as we say where I come from.

Solo

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

digital — Thu, 20 Feb 2014 16:14:32 GMT

Yes. I'm going to stick with my rechargeables as well. I keep pack of Alkaline as a backup but never use them. I'm not sure about ebiggs friends asseccment based on everything I have read but I live in an each to his own world. Whatever works for you.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

VOF — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 17:37:23 GMT

I have the same problem with my 580 EX and have done similar tests with my flash. I have multiple flash units and the problem is only with my 580 EX. Tomorrow I am bringing the flash into the Canon Service Center in Irvine, CA. I will let you know what Canon claims is the problem when the flash is repaired.

I am a pro photographer for over 40 years and would not hesitate to use my Eneloop rechageable batteries in my Nikon or Canon flash units or any other piece of equipment in which the batteries fit. I have never had any problems using rechargeables.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

VOF — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 03:56:54 GMT

I found the problem to my 580 EX underexposure and I hope this helps you if you haven't fixed your problem yet. I recently brought my camera into Canon for sensor cleaning and after that came a consistent flash underexposure. Before taking the camera and flash into Canon tomorrow, I decided to go through everything on the camera again. I discovered that the Flash Exposure Compensation in the camera's menu had been set to -2. When I set it back to 0, the camera and flash functioned perfectly. I have a 5D Mark III but your menu cannot be too different from mine. Find External Speedlite Control in your camera's menu, look this up in your manual to find where this is in your camera's menu. Scroll through the various sub menus under External Speedlite Control until you come to Flash Exposure Compensation. Set this back to zero if it is not already at zero. Hope this works for you.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

Solo — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 05:43:37 GMT

Thanks for your interest. I went through the same exercise as you, my settings were fine.

I now get good results, I tend to shoot in manual rather than ettl, sometimes with + flash exposure compensation.

Re: Speedlite 580EX II underexposure problem

Skirball — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 16:23:47 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
And if you have a malfunctioning flash, like all this started out, I firmly recommend you get a brand new set of regular AA's to make sure it is not the batteries. So, dump the rechargeables.

Or you could just put another set of rechargables in to check. It's not rocket surgery.

Your information on rechargables is dated, at best. NiMH rechargeables offer quicker recycle time, longer lasting, economically cheaper, and creates less waste. Your claims that it’s ok for the hobbyist, but beneath Pros, is just arrogance. Do a search for flash battery recommendations and you’ll see evidence of thousands, if not millions, of professional photographers that are using rechargeables without logistic difficulty. You charge them the night before, put them in a marked case, and it’s no different than pulling out a brand new set of alkalines.