topic Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints in Professional Photo Printers

PRO-100 True B&W Prints

blumb — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 13:42:58 GMT

Hello,

I just received my PRO-100 printer and I am trying to print a "true" black and white print. The two test prints I have created have a color cast to them and I cannot get rid of it.

I received a test print from Canon of the same image printed using the Canon PRO-1. It is a truly stunning print. The PRO-1 is currently out of my price range, hopefully that will change in the future, but for now I have the PRO-100. I understand the differences between DYE and Pigment but the issue isn't there. The issue seems to be that I just cannot turn off color from being introduced onto the final print.

The image was multiple color raw files combined into an HDR image, then converted to B&W. I have tried using LR4 to print the image with color correction set to none on the printer driver, and have also tried using the "Black and white" button within the Canon PRO-100 print dialog.

Questions are:

Is the PRO-100 Capable of utilizing just the black, grey, and light grey inks to produce a "Black and White" Print?

If it is, how is this accomplished?

My older Pixma Pro9000 printed just using the black cartridge; it at least printed a black and white print without any color cast.

Thank you.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

ebiggs1 — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 14:54:57 GMT

In Print Studio Pro, when the Print Black and White Photo checkbox is selected, images are converted to black and white data.

Color tones in black and white printing are delicate. In Print Studio Pro, you can finely adjust color tones for black and white printing. Produce subtle color tones by combining with color adjustment of the image editing software. In addition, you can print with the same settings repeatedly since the specified settings can be registered.

Besides selecting Cool Tone, Black and White or Warm Tone, you can finely adjust colors.
In addition, in order to find the color tone you want, you can utilize Pattern Print to view images with slightly varying color tones at one time.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

blumb — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:52:48 GMT

My point is that I have already converted the image to black and white via software prior to starting the printer dialog.

Images are processed in Lightroom, converted to black and white via Silver Efex (or Photoshop), I may follow up with further processing by dodging, burning, levels adjustment, etc... Color is removed from the image. If I wanted a sepia or other tones added to the image I would incorporate that into my process.

I want a black and white image. Canon, or it's printer, the PRO-100 in this case, is adding color where I am asking for none.

I'll have to look at the images under a loop or a spectrograph to check the color, but I can see a color cast with the PRO-100 software set at None (for matching) and neutral (under the toning).

I also checked using Print Studion Pro from within Lightroom. When I select "Print Black and White Photo" my image quality drops from 1 to 2. Has Canon set this to only allow 2 as the highest quality image if B&W image is selected?

I never had these issues with the Pixma Pro9000.

I upgraded to the PRO-100 for the additional monochrome inks to help with tonal gradations between black and white, not to have color thrown in. There must be a way of COMPLETELY turning off the adding of color.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

blumb — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 18:04:27 GMT

Just wanted to add this from Canon's site for the Feature List of the PRO-100

True Monochrome Prints:
The 3 monochrome inks
which are part of the 8-ink ChromaLife 100+ system3 consist of Black,
Gray, and Light Gray. These inks deliver enhanced, deep black density to raise
your level of professional print quality when creating the dramatic expression
of grayscale photography.

If I am missing something I hope someone on this forum can help. 🙂

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

Tinman — Tue, 06 Aug 2013 20:15:28 GMT

Blumb:

I hope that you get an answer as I am in the same boat as you. I just want to print a B&W photo that does not have a blue or yellow cast. I do not want to adjust every feature in the print dialog box just to accomplish this task.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

blumb — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 00:02:34 GMT

Tinman,

I am with you.

Grayscale should be shades of gray NOT well a little bit of cyan, magenta, yellow, etc... because some programmer decided not to let us have a TRUE monochrome print.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

ebiggs1 — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 02:32:20 GMT

This is a photo of a little boy that I printed with PS and my Pixma Pro-100.

All the settings are the defaults that come with the printer except B&W is selected in the Printer settings. The Color match is set to Auto.

All the settings are defaults for the color print. The Color match is Auto.

PS converted it to B&W and PS is set to manage color on both prints. It seems pretty good to me and if I did a little tweaking I could probably make it even better.

The print was scanned on my Canon Canoscan 9000f so it could be posted from the actual print.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

Tinman — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 02:41:49 GMT

To bad Canon does not state that you must purchase Photoshop to use with a Pro-100 if B&W prints are to be made. When I make color prints I have no problems. It should be the same with B&W.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

ebiggs1 — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 03:04:03 GMT

Well if you want me to, I can do the same prints with LR but I suspect it will look the same.

I really don't know how to help you.

The printer will print B&W. Something is a fowl here. I doubt PS is required to print B&W. It is just the preffered software I use along with LR and Bridge.

What color seems to be in your B&W prints. Possibly you could add a filter to remove it. If it is a reddish, you could add some cooling filter. Just thinking out loud, now.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

blumb — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 11:59:18 GMT

I am sure that the printer will print in true monochrome as it was intended.

As stated in my previous post, the file was of a HDR bracketed images, converted to black and white within Silver Efex, dodged and burned within PS CS6, and then returned to Lightroom.

I sent the same image to Canon to have it tested on the PRO-1 and the PRO-100 and it was printed on Ilford Galleria Gold silk Paper, using their "Try my print" service.

The print from the PRO-1 is nothing short of amazing; beautiful tonality, crisp detail, and a true monochrome print.

The print from the PRO-100 is good but not as crisp, and with a slight color cast, towards green I would say.

I thought it was maybe the paper as the Gold Silk is primarily used with Pigment inks.

Granted, I have only tried printing with the supplied Pro Luster paper, but the prints of the same image has the same greenish cast to them. I tried first with LR managing the color and then the printer managing the color.

If my scanner was working properly I would scan them and attach the images.

If you go to the print properties dialog box you will see that you cannot turn off all of the colors. The software allows a warm or cool toned print while the black and white image is selected. Granted, this may be wanted in some cases. In this case I want a PURE monochrome print. I should have the option of having no color added to the final image.

There is also the case where once you select black and white image, the quality also drops in the dialog, you may no longer select a quality of 1, 2 is the Max when printing B&W. If you have the quality set to 1 then select "black and white" the quality level drops to 3; unless you have "always print in the finest quality setting" selected in the advanced print settings dialog; even then it only allows a Max quality of 2 with black and white prints.

This weekend when I have more time to devote to the printer I will run more test prints to see where the cast is; maybe try the pattern print option. I may also see about profiling the printer but without a high and profiteered it will be difficult.

Sorry for the rant...

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

ebiggs1 — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 13:35:50 GMT

First I don't know what Silver Efex is or what efects it can have of photos.

Second you have used Windows "Calibrate your monitor"? Your gray scale may be off and not showing you what you are actually printing.

I don't know what 1,2, and 3 quality is.

All I set was the Print B&W box.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

blumb — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 15:43:31 GMT

Hi ebiggs,

1. Silver Efex is a software program to convert images to black and white. With Silver Efex you can check the tonality of the image using the 10 Zone system created by Ansel Adams and others. The software was originally created by Nik Software but is now owned by Google. I have used this software for many years as a creative starting point in my conversion and have never had an issue with it. Check out the details here. Silver Efex Pro 2

2. I use two (2) Dell U2410 monitors calibrated to AdobeRGB workspace. My images are captured in AdobeRGB raw, processed in AdobeRGB within Lightroom and Photoshop, and processed as a 16bit TIFF in Silver Efex (if sent there). Then PS or LR to strip color information from the image if black and white. But to answer your question, Yes, my monitor is (are) calibrated and correctly configured within Windows.

3. Quality in B&W printing. This is setting the image to Black and White Printing. Quality goes as high as 2

This is with the Black and White Photo Print not checked, Quality can go to 1.

These screens shots are from Canon's Plug-in Print Utility:

I am sure it really doesn't add much between 1 and 2, as stated in reviews I have read, but why not have a choice. Just an observation.

Like I said, I'll have to create some proofs for testing, maybe print a known grayscale chart to see if the shift exist there as well. Could be the paper and ink combination, or that I got very comfortable with the prints from my Pro9000.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

ebiggs1 — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 18:06:58 GMT

I shy away from AdobeRGB because of compatibility issues (monitors and printers). Possibly that is your problem. Swutch to sRGB and see if there is a difference,

Also, I don't use any software except the ones I already mentioned. CS6, LR5 and Bridge. Try using just them and use the defaults. Don't try the extra "make it better" stuff until you know where you are.

I don't even use the Canon plug-in for PS and LR. It's not needed!

I have used Photo Shop for 40 years or so and don't intend to learn how to use any thing else. I am too old to learn new tricks.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

grapegeek — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 19:32:54 GMT

Funny thing for me is in running a couple of tests on my new printer I found that a print I did on the Canon semi-gloss produced neutral BW prints while on the Luster paper I got a green tinge.

Would be nice to do a true BW image with ONLY the grayscale inks. I plan on scanning on of my prints in high resolution to see if the printer is laying down colored ink or not.

Clearly we all have some fiddling around to do but the prints I've done on semi-gloss have been great!

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

blumb — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 19:50:54 GMT

I too go back a way with Photoshop, very early 90's, and used to stay within the sRGB colorspace.

I switched to AdobeRGB when it was supported directly in the camera,. Why? Wider Gamut of colors capable of being displayed or printed. Yes, I know that sRGB is more widely used, but as future monitors are made being able to reproduce the images, I think more people will switch. Just as our televisions have changed over time and many people watch HDTV at 1080p resolution, we are just years away from mass produced 4K televisions which will surely rival the iMax theatre displays.

But I digress,

With my monitors profiled and prints previously made, I know it is NOT the image. Period.

I even have two different looking prints from Canon, one from the PRO-1 and 1 from the PRO-100. Both produced using the exact same image, both on Ilford Gold silk paper, but only one has a color cast. I will try to get them scanned so others can see the differences.

Regardless of sRGB versus AdobeRGB, the image I am printing is a grayscale image. No color should be used to produce the print if I so wish.

The printer has 3 black inks (Black, Gray, and Light Gray), there should be a button, or selection options, that allows, "Black, Gray, and Light Gray Inks Only".

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

blumb — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 22:10:25 GMT

Hi Grapegeek,

That's it. Green tinge (color cast) on the Luster. I tried a sheet of Galerie Smooth Pearl using a grayscale test image from North Light Images. Click here for link

I used one, 13 x 19, sheet of the Galerie Smooth Pearl and printed from Lightroom 4 using the software to control color.

The printer was set to Photo Paper Plus Semi-Gloss, per Ilford's instructions, and color management Intent set to Relative.

Printed with the preceding settings except as follows:

1. Printer dialog settings: Black and White Photo Print - Unchecked, Image Quality = 1 (highest)

2. Printer dialog settings: Black and White Photo Print - Checked, Image Quality = 2 (highest in black and white print mode)

I printed on the same sheet of paper, rotating the paper after it was finished so I could achieve a comparison using the same page. I cut the sheet into two and compared, by eye, the prints side-by-side.

The image that was printed using the "Black and White Photo Print" has a very slight greenish tint. The un-checked, highest quality print looks great. When I find a scanner I will scan and check the images to see if my "calibrated" eyes are telling me the truth or if age is messing with me.

I will try further prints to test further....

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

ebiggs1 — Wed, 07 Aug 2013 23:32:13 GMT

Not trying to change this to a AdobeRGB vs. sRGB but .......

If you use Adobe RGB you need to remember to convert back to sRGB before sending your prints out or sharing them on the Internet. Otherwise they look duller than sRGB! Also probably need to save in tiff not jpeg. AdobeRGB just has never caught on in a big way.

If you have the right software to re-expand the colors you theoretically might have a slightly broader range of colors. However, if at any point in the chain you don't have the right software and haven't attached the Adobe RGB profile you'll get the duller colors as recorded!

Web browsers don't have, and print labs rarely have, the right software to read Adobe RGB This is why people who shoot it are so often disappointed. Even if a place has the right software, and you forget to add the Adobe RGB profiles to your files you'll get dull colors.

Adobe RGB may be able to represent a slightly larger range of colors, no screen or print material I've used can show this broader range.

Now I don't know if this showing up in your case but it is certainly a possibility. Because the info for that is embedded in the profile. I don't know if just converting to B&W deletes that.

And than again it may just be the profile of the paper in the first place.

Maybe it hasn't a thing to do with AdobeRGB but all I know is I didn't change anything from the defaults that are already set by the printer. Nothing changed in PS either except convert to B&W. I am using Canon Semi-gloss paper not the paper you are using.

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

blumb — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 00:32:07 GMT

Hi ebiggs,

Yes, I am fully aware of the limitations of sRGB within labs and the internet. Part of my work flow is to convert to sRGB before uploading to my website or posting on the net. If I do post AdobeRGB I make sure the color profile is embedded within the image so Explorer (newer versions), Safari, and Firefox convert them properly.

As far as labs go, I will not submit my images to a lab without getting their profiles first and making sure they can take AdobeRGB files. I don not use places like Ritz camera for this reason, they will just process images without looking at the embedded profile, sometimes to the detriment of the print.

Agreed, profiling properly is very important.

However, one thing I discovered tonight is if you tell the printer dialog, for the PRO-100, to "Print Black and White Image" with a gray scale image, it does print with a color cast. I will still investigate with other media.

Thanks again for the dialog. 🙂

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

blumb — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 17:08:16 GMT

I think I found something here, all spelled out in the user guide.

Note here: "COLOR INKS MAY BE USED AS WELL"

Another important bit of information:

So even if you select a custom profile using specific type of paper, Canon disables custom color correction and chooses what to do if the "Black and White Print" check box is selected???

Re: PRO-100 True B&W Prints

grapegeek — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 19:35:10 GMT

I am having troubles with the Canon plugin in CS6. If I select a color image from a digital camera, no problem. If I select a scanned in BW negative from my Epson scanner, no image comes up in the plugin just a white box. I know it's another issue, but I need to get to the bottom of it because I think a lot of people would want to print BW from film.

Anyways am I letting Photoshop control the printing or letting the Canon software do it? I'm a little confused about the settings on the Photoshop side of things...