topic Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode in Professional Video

AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

PeteAG — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 20:33:20 GMT

Hi there,

I just bought the R5C and I am fairly dissapointed by the fact that the AF of my two TAMRON lenses (SP 35 1.4 and SP 70-200 G2) does not work in video mode. In photo mode everything is perfect but in video mode...no chance. The problem is broadly discussed at reddit, DPReview a.s.o.

Seems to be fixable by Canon cause these lenses DO work on a C70.

CANON, please fix this as soon as possible!

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

deebatman316 — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 20:39:25 GMT

Canon is NOT REQUIRED to make THIRD PARTY lenses work with their gear. So its not up to Canon to make the lens work.

-Demetrius

40D, 5D Mark IV, EF 16-35mm F/2.8L III USM, EF 24-70mm F/2.8L II USM, EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM, EF 50 F/1.8 STM

430EX III-RT & 600EX II-RT

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

PeteAG — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 20:41:08 GMT

So tell me why is it working on a C70 and a C300MII?

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

deebatman316 — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 20:45:39 GMT

Tamron and Sigma have to reverse engineer the lens mount to get the electronics in the lens to work. Camera manufactures DO NOT release their proprietary lens communication protocols to other companies. You must've gotten lucky with your other cameras. Or Canon changed something in their lens communication protocol.

-Demetrius

40D, 5D Mark IV, EF 16-35mm F/2.8L III USM, EF 24-70mm F/2.8L II USM, EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM, EF 50 F/1.8 STM

430EX III-RT & 600EX II-RT

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

Tronhard — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 21:03:26 GMT

Canon, like all other camera makers, make it clear, and logic would suggest that it is the responsibility of 3rd paty manufacturers to make their lenses work with OEM camera equipment - in this case Canon.

Both Tamron and Sigma have clearly stared that their lenses are not designed to work with R- series bodies.

That is why one should do due diligence before making any purchase.

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

PeteAG — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 20:57:19 GMT

Will return the R5C tomorrow. Thanks.

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

Tronhard — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 21:43:37 GMT

Well... actually, reverse engineering is actually illegal. OEM manufacturer allow IP to be available to 3rd party manufacturers under licensing agreements, for which they pay a fee. That is why, up to this point, DSLRs and some MILCs (M-series) have 3rd party lenses that are available and work. Canon have not, so far, allowed 3rd party manufacturers that license - which makes sense, given they are still developing their line of lenses, and want some return for that huge investment.

If history repeats itself, for the EF-M series and the 1990's, Canon will have a few years of exclusivity, and then 3rd party lenses will become licensed and make lenses that work. See my lengthy post on this HERE

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

deebatman316 — Sat, 29 Oct 2022 22:03:48 GMT

I guess I should've put it that Canon doesn't release their communication protocol. The 3rd party has to figure out how to make their lenses work for a particular mount. So Canon can not grantee compatibility with 3rd party items.

Edit: In some countries reverse engineering is legal. But patent infringement is illegal unless the patent has expired.

-Demetrius

40D, 5D Mark IV, EF 16-35mm F/2.8L III USM, EF 24-70mm F/2.8L II USM, EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM, EF 50 F/1.8 STM

430EX III-RT & 600EX II-RT

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

shadowsports — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 00:01:10 GMT

Greetings,

@PeteAG,

May I respectfully recommend you give this some more thought and not make a knee-jerk return. I purchased a control ring with my R5 C. I have a modest collection of EF glass - Sigma Art, Contemporary, Canon L and non L series lenses. So far they all work in photo mode. The Sigma 24~70 Art works in CineOS too, but not as well as native RF glass. Thus I purchased a RF version of the lens. I was ok doing so since this version now has IS. This was the reason I purchased the Sigma Art in EF in the first place. Its like it was made for my 6D2.

The R5 C is a premiere product. Yes it has some quirks. I know exactly how you feel though. I just spent $5k on a body. I have an adapter, "what do you mean my 3rd party EF lenses won't work in CineOS"? They aren't Canon lenses. Unfortunately, not all will work and some will work better than others. I thought the same thing. I'll just use my control ring and take my time migrating to RF. 5 months later and there is only 1 more lens I probably want.

While I am not ultimately a fan of Tamron, I know they make good glass. Comparatively though, Tamron lenses have one of the highest levels of hardware incompatibility in the industry. They barely ever release FW. This was one of the main reasons I chose Sigma over them. Also because the zoom is reversed which is silly I know. I don't think Canon will spend any time getting your EF glass to work in CineOS on the R5 C. Tamron most assuredly will not. We all know 35mm is super sweet for video. Canon has their RF 35mm for $399 right now. Its $100 off. Anyway, just use the camera for a bit and see what you think. Or dump it for the R5. It really is a nice camera though.

One last question. What body or body's are you coming from.

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

Tronhard — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 00:13:08 GMT

I referred to an ex-client who works for a major law firm here and specializes in international patent law. According to her, all of Canon's IP is protected legally, so in that context wherever their patents and copyrights are recognized, reverse engineering would not be legal. Given that Canon's patents over the RF mount and associated firmware are very new, I think it is safe to say that reverse engineering is not going to be happening with any company that wants to do business with Canon again. She said that Canon could have slapped a law suit against those who have infringed already, but they fired shot across their bows with a cease and desist letter - it has happened on the quiet with other camera makers, she added.

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

deebatman316 — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 00:19:21 GMT

I would've thought reverse engineering would be completely outlawed everywhere apparently this isn't the case. As far as the EF Mount I don't know if there patents have expired or not. The RF Mount has new patents that haven't expired.

-Demetrius

40D, 5D Mark IV, EF 16-35mm F/2.8L III USM, EF 24-70mm F/2.8L II USM, EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM, EF 50 F/1.8 STM

430EX III-RT & 600EX II-RT

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

Tronhard — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 00:20:18 GMT

What I find perplexing is the concept that people have that Canon have to make their cameras compatible with 3rd party lenses - which is a common misconception, it would appear. It is absolutely the responsibility of the 3rd party makers to ensure their gear works with the OEM's equipment. In licensing agreements between the OEM and the 3rd party, both sides will have commitments: specifically the OEM will ensure that if they have licensed firmware to control devices like lenses of strobes, that they will update the 3rd party with such IP as appropriate. However, it is the responsibility of that 3rd party to then make their products compliant. That does not apply in this (and similar cases) as the lenses in question were never intended by the makers to work with the new RF mounts.

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

Tronhard — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 00:31:44 GMT

If you read my post you will understand why none of this applies here. Canon's gear is patented up to the hilt. The EF mount came out in 1987, so it could well have lapsed its patents by now.

It makes no sense for the makers of 3rd party lenses to reverse engineer when they can get a license agreement with the OEM, get updates and avoid litigation. It is quite difficult to reverse engineer firmware, and honestly not worth the effort and risk if is not well done. Canon and other makers have very good relationships with Sigma and other quality lens makers, because they recognize the benefit to their camera and peripheral sales to have for those who, for one reason or another, will not use OEM lenses.

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

deebatman316 — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 00:43:09 GMT

I would've thought Canon's system was more locked down. I was always told 3rd parties had to figure it out themselves. Also that the OEM doesn't license out their proprietary communication.

-Demetrius

40D, 5D Mark IV, EF 16-35mm F/2.8L III USM, EF 24-70mm F/2.8L II USM, EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM, EF 50 F/1.8 STM

430EX III-RT & 600EX II-RT

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

Tronhard — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 00:57:03 GMT

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'locked down'. Legally, it is, but there is no reason why an OEM would not avoid pain and suffering for them and everyone else, and get some ROI by leasing out access to certain parts of the firmware. It is the same with computer manufacturers. IBM rigorously enforced patents back in the 1980's and 90's with the firmware for their PS/2 systems, but over time they released parts of that material as they got back some of their investment and wanted to further establish the brand's market base. I was working between Microsoft and IBM at the time and while not directly involved in the legalities, I had to sign NDA's in both directions about what was and was not allowed to be shared according to the licensing documents.

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

deebatman316 — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 01:00:05 GMT

I shouldn't have said locked down. But throughout the forum. It was always said that 3rd parties reverse engineered lenses, speedlites and other accessories. Canon DID NOT license other companies to make things for the EOS system.

-Demetrius

40D, 5D Mark IV, EF 16-35mm F/2.8L III USM, EF 24-70mm F/2.8L II USM, EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM, EF 50 F/1.8 STM

430EX III-RT & 600EX II-RT

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

Tronhard — Sun, 30 Oct 2022 01:52:43 GMT

"Canon DID NOT license other companies to make things for the EOS system". Not according to my legal eagle. She at one point said she was staring at such a licensing agreement as it was being used as a model for a similar agreement with an Australian company. Given she is a partner and has no reason to lie about it, if you have documentation to the contrary, I would love to reference it.

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

PeteAG — Mon, 31 Oct 2022 21:37:26 GMT

Hi there. I am a bit pissed by some answers cause a lot of Canons popularity for so many users is the ability to use third party lenses which don't cost thousands of dollars or euros. My first Canon was a T2i/550D with a kit lens I've never liked. The first lens I bought for it was a Sigma 18-35 which I still use today and this lens is fantastic by no competition from Canon itself. And this lens made a huge difference for people choosing Canon over some other brands.

You cannot argue that this is not Canons problem when a third party lens does not work with their cameras. It's a investment decision. The 8K50 full frame and my huge collection of EF-lenses was the reason I bought the R5C over all the other brands. When you look at the lens market, L-mount and E-mount is where you will find EVERYTHING to be happy. But in the RF-universe this is a pretty huge bummer cause the RF system keeps unattractive for people who wanna have a choice. And Canon should not ignore that! I don't like Sony nor the Panasonics but the lens choices are just over Canons excellent and I would love to use such lenses for my work!

Yes, I paid 5k for a body only device but I wish that Canon would let me decide which lens/look I want to use on this.

@Elite I'am from Germany

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

Tronhard — Mon, 31 Oct 2022 22:46:00 GMT

Hi Pete:
In response to your comment "You cannot argue that this is not Canons (sic) problem when a third party lens does not work with their cameras. It's a investment decision".

Actually one can. Canon have no control over the manufacture over 3rd party lenses - that is the right and responsibility of those manufacturers, so they have no responsibility for them. It is up to 3rd party manufacturer to make their gear work with EOM equipment. That is true for all camera makers and and lens makers.

Right now, Canon is still developing the RF/RF-S lens mounts and their own suite of lenses to work with them. To design a lens for any modern camera system takes years of design and testing, so for all you know 3rd party makers are on that path. One clue that I have alluded to is that Sigma have significantly expanded their design and manufacturing capacity, in the words of the CEO Kazuto Yamaki. He said that this was to increase capacity to address 'the new lens mounts'. The plural used here is significant. There are only two new lens mounts around at this point: the Nikon Z mount, and the Canon R mount. It beggars belief that they would build a new factory, and invest in new engineers if they were not confident that they had a market to engage with.

So, forget the click-bait and rumours, and be patient. This has happened before when Canon went from the FD mount to the EOS EF mount. They did not lock the 3rd party makers out of the market at that time, but there was a delay of a few years between the introduction of the mount and the first 3rd party lenses coming to market. Canon are not stupid - they know the benefits of having 3rd party lenses, and they have good relations with reputable companies like Sigma and Tamron, for example.

Re: AF not working with TAMRON lenses on R5C in video mode

estudiook — Thu, 09 Feb 2023 10:16:28 GMT

Good. At this point, Feb 2023, any news or solutions about?