topic Re: New equipment priority in General Discussion

New equipment priority

bmcknc — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:18:04 GMT

I am needing to shoot some indoor sporting events (swimming) over the next few months and am looking for some opinions on purchasing new equipment. I currently have a 1D Mark II body and the main lens I would shoot the swim meets with would be a L series 135mm f2 with and without a 1.4 converter. This is short course swimming so the swimmers are swimming 25 yard laps (not a significant distance to cover).

I am looking at picking up a 7D Mark II and a 70-200 2.8 zoom, but cannot purchase both at the same time. Would I be better off to pick up the 7D MK II body first and use the 135 or pick up the 70-200 for use on the 1D Mark II? I also have a L series 300mm f4, but am not sure how much use this would be under the lighting conditions I will be faced with.

I could be looking at several months between the purchases, and just want to get the maximum improvement in shooting experience with the first purchase.

Thanks!

Re: New equipment priority

Skirball — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 19:23:30 GMT

Lens first.

Re: New equipment priority

cicopo — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 20:30:26 GMT

I'll argue that with "depends on whether or not you need higher ISO" to get an appropriate shutter speed. The 7D2 should offer a minimum 2 stop increase over the 1D2 (iso 1600 can become ISO 6400) based on everything I've read & still be cleaner. Pools can be pretty bright so you'll need to evaluate your shooting conditions to decide.

Re: New equipment priority

jrhoffman75 — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 21:10:13 GMT

If you are currently happy with the 135/1.4 combo as far as image quality goes do you need shorter than 135mm? I think that would be the only advantage of the 70-200 vs what you already have.

By all accounts the 7D Mark II is a much improved camera over the 1D Mark II, and you are picking up almost a 25% increase in effective reach with the 1.6 crop.

Re: New equipment priority

ebiggs1 — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:20:43 GMT

"... the 7D Mark II is a much improved camera over the 1D Mark II"

This is an understatement by a long way. The 7D Mk II beats a 1D Mk II everywhere and in everything. But your delima has no correct answer except to replace both.

I own a 1D Mk II and have shot it for years. I love it and all 1 series cameras. In truth it can not even compete with the new 7D Mk II or even the 7D which I also owned.

In your case you could have a better camera and, IMHO, a better lens combo. I would not like being put in that situation.

Bottom line, I guess, is get the 70-200mm f2.8 L first. On your 1D Mk II it's widest is going to look like 90 mm. Not very wide to say the least. The 24-70mm f2.8 L and your current 135mm/1.4 could be a much better lens choice.

Re: New equipment priority

bmcknc — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 14:54:35 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"... the 7D Mark II is a much improved camera over the 1D Mark II"

.....Bottom line, I guess, is get the 70-200mm f2.8 L first. On your 1D Mk II it's widest is going to look like 90 mm. Not very wide to say the least. The 24-70mm f2.8 L and your current 135mm/1.4 could be a much better lens choice.

Thanks ebiggs1,

@I actually own the older 28-70 2.8 L but rarely use it for swim meets since I'm primarily interested in shots in the pool during the events requiring longer focal lengths. With this info, would you still recommend the 1D M2 @ 1.3 crop factor with the 70-200 2.8 over the 7DM2 @1.6 crop factor and the 135 2.0? A contributor in an earlier post suggested as much as a two stop advantage to the 7DMK2 over the 1DMK2 with equal or improved image quality. Would this be consistent with your experience with the 7DMK1? If this is the case, my 300mm f4 on the 7DMK2 could have some potential, even in these lighting conditions.

Re: New equipment priority

ebiggs1 — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 15:24:34 GMT

You actually have me at a disavantage as I have never shot a swin meet and really don't know what is involved.

My suggestion just comes from my experiences with simular circumstances and cameras.

I will say the 7D Mk II should have way more than just a two stop advantage over the 1D Mk II.

Let me understand a little more. Are you saying the 1d2 and the 135mm/1.4x is a good fit for swim meets? If that is truly the case than the 70-200mm f2.8, to me anyway, is the thing to buy first.

If you like the 1 series as I do, before you buy a 7D Mk II, take a look at the 1D Mk IV. It is as good as it gets in a camera body, excluding the 1Dx.

I have owned and shot almost every camera Canon, and brand-N for that matter, makes. I have sold all the others, except a couple Nikons, and my 1 series. I would not trade the 1D Mk IV for any camera including the 1Dx although I would love to add it to my inventory.

But back to you, what are the distances and lighting. Are there any restrictions on where you can stand? Chance of water splashing on the equipment, etc?

Re: New equipment priority

cicopo — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 22:46:39 GMT

I've never shot a swim meet either but did compete in my youth. The pools we competed in were well lit but they were still an indoor venue. Also keep in mind that going from an 8.2 Mpixel body to a 20 Mpixel body allows a much deeper crop if you're a bit short on lens length while still retaining a decent file size.

Re: New equipment priority

RexGig — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:34:10 GMT

I have shot several of my nephew's swim meets. Natatoriums (indoor swimming pools) are notoriosly dimly-lit. I used a 7D with my best lens at the time, with AF and enough reach, my EF 100mm 2.8L Macro IS. I found myself wishing for f/2, just a bit more reach, and for faster AF, and so I did my research, then during the off-season, when I had saved enough, bought the EF 135mm f/2L. The next year, however, my nephew did not compete in swimming.

I later acquired a pair of 1D Mark II N bodies, one generation newer than the 1D Mark II, with the intention of using them in good light for birds. The 1D II N certainly has excellent AF, even in low light, often seeming notably better than the 7D, but it struggles to produce good low-light images, compared to a 7D, and now that I have added the 7D Mark II, well, there is no comparison.

In this case, I would say to upgrade the camera body first. The 135mm f/2L does have quite fast AF, though I have not yet used the 70-200mm f/2.8L lenses for comparison, but the 135L is certainly no slouch with moving subjects. The 7D Mark II should handily outperform the 1D Mark II, as it outperfroms my 1D Mark II N bodies. (I plan to keep my older cameras; they are still a joy to use in good light.) My 135L certainly exhibits fast AF on my 7D Mark II, with and without the Extender 1.4x III.

Re: New equipment priority

RexGig — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 21:32:37 GMT

I should add that the 7D Mark II has the anti-flicker feature, that will time the shots to coincide with the lighting present at most athletic venues, which cycles too quickly for us to perceive, but will cause inconsistent exposures with fast shutter speeds. I have yet to use it, myself, but reviews have reported that it works as advertised.

Re: New equipment priority

bmcknc — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 23:05:48 GMT

Thanks RexGig for posting your experience in shooting indoor swim meets. My original post was a week or so before the meet and I went ahead and purchased the 7dII body. The particular venue was extremely challenging with a combination of poor quality overhead lighting and large tinted plate glass windows adding difficult reflections in the water. I had the 7dII only a few days before the meet and had limited time to gain familiarity (tons more options than the 1DMII). I was quite pleased with the results from the new 7dII and the 135/2. I tried a number of exposure and metering options during the different sessions.

I am a bit surprised by the learning curve on the 7DII. In particular, all of the different auto focus scenario settings will require some experimentation to determine ideal settings.

If you'd like to see some of the resultshere is a link:

http://www.qwikpixel.com/Swim-Meets/2015-BC-States

A previous indoor meet with the 1dMarkII a few weeks before purchasing the 7dII (youll see why I was looking for an upgrade!)

http://www.qwikpixel.com/Swim-Meets/Photos/High-Point-Swim-Club-2015

Looking forward to the netx two meets I'll be shooting this summer both outdoors in a pool with great color

Thanks again for your post!

Re: New equipment priority

cicopo — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 23:36:43 GMT

I hear you re the learning curve, and I've shot a lot of Canon bodies including the 1D2n (which I still use occasionally) I bought a very lightly 7D2 10 days ago & have spent most of my time learning the AF menu / selection system. I'll be using for Radio Control flying events once the season starts up again. Now I'm off to look at your photos.

Re: New equipment priority

cicopo — Tue, 24 Mar 2015 23:42:17 GMT

I think you did very well with the new camera. Just imaging how well you'll do once you master the controls.

Re: New equipment priority

bmcknc — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 00:16:16 GMT

Thanks cicopo for your comments and for taking time to look at the photos. I'd love to see some of your RC aircraft work, sort of birds in flight on steroids.

Re: New equipment priority

cicopo — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 00:53:34 GMT

When I went to the link the first time (I looked at both links) I thought the 3rd image over looked GREAT and even though there was water on the goggles you could nearly see the eyes as being in focus. Then I looked at the other set & then back to set 1 & clicked on that image to see if it enlarged but it took me to a much bigger set & there were lots in nice sharp focus.

R/C stuff is here. http://picasaweb.google.com/tcprcphotos

Re: New equipment priority

bmcknc — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 01:06:44 GMT

Great body of work. My brother in law does some R/C flying here in North Carolina. I may have to tag along some time with camera bag in tow.

Re: New equipment priority

cicopo — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 01:27:49 GMT

Thanks. It's great for panning practice. Unlike full scale you can get prop blur with about 1/800 sec shutter speeds but slower is better. If you want something swim related try here

http://picasaweb.google.com/CozumelTimeCapsules

I've been a water person for a very long time.

Re: New equipment priority

ebiggs1 — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:00:04 GMT

"I later acquired a pair of 1D Mark II N bodies, one generation newer than the 1D Mark II, ..."

It isn't actually a generation newer. This updated 1 series 'N' has only a moderate range of updates. The EOS-1D Mark II N has the same 8.2 megapixel CMOS sensor, the same DIGIC II processor the same 8.5 fps shooting speed. The primary changes are a new 2.5" wide viewing angle LCD monitor, improved buffer and the ability to write different formats to either SD and CF cards. The 1D Mk III is the next "generation" 1 series.

I still own one and still use it occasionally. It is a serverly out dated camera that uses Firewire!

Re: New equipment priority

ebiggs1 — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 14:06:19 GMT

Yes, your shots look very good, indeed. I am surprised at the 135mm f2 but I have never been a fan of that focal length although I have two of them. One is an old FD. It is a very good lens just doesn't seem very useful to me.

Good job by you, though.

Re: New equipment priority

RexGig — Wed, 25 Mar 2015 22:45:59 GMT

I concede that the 1D Mark II N is not a true, full generation newer than the II. Some of the menu, software, and perhaps other internal changes were quite significant, however, which prompted me to shop for pre-owned Mark II N, rather than Mark II bodies. I cannot recall many of the specifics, as that was over two years ago. I remember not wanting to have to learn a menu much different than my oldest DSLR at the time, the 5D; the 5D and 1D II N were announced at about the same time.

I got my II N cameras for birds in good light, but when I thought one of my 7D cameras might have had a failing shutter, I elevated a II N to night-time forensic/evidentiary/documentary duty, and found that a modern Speedlite will enable a II N to be quite relevant, today, in low light. (Actually, I had, somehow, fumbled a setting; my 7D was OK, but learning the II N could be so versatile was a good thing.)