topic Re: CF Cards in General Discussion

CF Cards

Liz22012 — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 12:49:03 GMT

I have been considering picking up a 7D and was wondering if the CF cards will be an issue. What I mean by this is in time will we not be able to purchase the cards. Seems like less stores carry them and makes one wonder if the will be phased out.

Any thoughts?

Re: CF Cards

cicopo — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 13:25:13 GMT

I don't think there's anything to worry about for some time yet. Canon still puts a CF card slot in it's high end cameras & for good reason. CF cards have been very reliable & have fast write speeds. I've had 3 or 4 SD cards split open & the lock tab fall out rendering them useless.

Re: CF Cards

Liz22012 — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 14:11:29 GMT

Thanks. I was thinking the same.

Re: CF Cards

RobertTheFat — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 14:59:56 GMT

@cicopo wrote:
I don't think there's anything to worry about for some time yet. Canon still puts a CF card slot in it's high end cameras & for good reason. CF cards have been very reliable & have fast write speeds. I've had 3 or 4 SD cards split open & the lock tab fall out rendering them useless.

A CF card is also much harder (well, at least a little harder) to lose.

Incidentally, the 1DX still has two CF slots and no SD slot. So if you pretend you own a 1DX, you should always be able to get CF cards.

Re: CF Cards

ebiggs1 — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:04:29 GMT

Not only Canon's 5D Mk III and 1Dx, but Nikon's top of the line, D4, D4s, still has a CF slot.

I vastly prefer them over SD cards, too.

Re: CF Cards

RobertTheFat — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 15:24:27 GMT

@cicopo wrote:
I don't think there's anything to worry about for some time yet. Canon still puts a CF card slot in its high end cameras ...

I think I've mentioned this before, but it probably bears repeating. On the 5D3 (and I suppose also the 7D2) you can set the camera to use one specific card by preference, but fail over to the other one if the preferred card is full or missing. So suppose, with both card slots filled, you set the camera to use the CF card. You take some pictures, on the preferred (CF) card, and then take that card out to put it in your card reader. The camera, sensing that the CF card is missing, immediately fails over to the second (SD) card. When you've finished reading the CF card, you put it back into the camera. You might expect the camera to notice that the CF card is now present and revert to your original setting (i.e., use the CF card first), but it does not. To restore the original setting, you have to set ti again manually.

The punch line is that this behavior occurs, even if the camera is turned off during the entire time the CF card is out of the camera!

Very annoying.

Re: CF Cards

Skirball — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 16:54:01 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@cicopo wrote:
I don't think there's anything to worry about for some time yet. Canon still puts a CF card slot in its high end cameras ...
I think I've mentioned this before, but it probably bears repeating. On the 5D3 (and I suppose also the 7D2) you can set the camera to use one specific card by preference, but fail over to the other one if the preferred card is full or missing. So suppose, with both card slots filled, you set the camera to use the CF card. You take some pictures, on the preferred (CF) card, and then take that card out to put it in your card reader. The camera, sensing that the CF card is missing, immediately fails over to the second (SD) card. When you've finished reading the CF card, you put it back into the camera. You might expect the camera to notice that the CF card is now present and revert to your original setting (i.e., use the CF card first), but it does not. To restore the original setting, you have to set ti again manually.

The punch line is that this behavior occurs, even if the camera is turned off during the entire time the CF card is out of the camera!

Very annoying.

I think it's safe to say that Canon thoroughly botched the dual card reader in the the 5d3. But every camera has to have an issue, seems a relatively small one. Still, I'd expect they iron this out (as well as the slow SD card reader) in the next version.

As to the SD/CF debate, I'll weigh in just to keep things balanced. I don't think CF cards will go away any time soon, but I do think they'll continue to get phased out. The speed really isn't an issue anymore; SD cards are plenty fast enough for dSLRs. At least, they are for the mega files coming out of the D810, perhaps if you're just holding the shutter on the 7D2 you will eventually see a difference. But in real world shooting, for most people, speed isn't going to be an issue.

I've never lost nor broke an SD card. I don't know what these guys are doing to them, but I suspect this is more a theoretical issue than an actual one. I've heard more about bent pins on CF cards than broken SD cards. I find it funny that in most things making it smaller is considered a benefit that many pay more for, but suddenly with SD cards it's a liability. I'm terrible about putting things back where it belongs while shooting; I'm always pulling out triggers and lens caps out of various pockets. But I've never lost a card that I know of. I have a couple old cards bouncing around in my "ashtray" in my car, uncovered, that still work fine. Which brings me to the real reason why I use SD cards: because my laptop, my desktop, my work computer, my tablets, and even my car have an SD card reader. They're convenient.

Re: CF Cards

RobertTheFat — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 16:33:59 GMT

Skirball wrote:

The 5D3 hasn't had a firmware update in more than a year, so it's not like they haven't had time to get it right. But yeah, it's not an "A" issue.

I hadn't heard about the SD card reader issue. How does that one manifest itself?

Re: CF Cards

Skirball — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 16:53:11 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@Skirball wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Canon thoroughly botched the dual card reader in the the 5d3. But every camera has to have an issue, seems a relatively small one. Still, I'd expect they iron this out (as well as the slow SD card reader) in the next version.

The 5D3 hasn't had a firmware update in more than a year, so it's not like they haven't had time to get it right. But yeah, it's not an "A" issue.

I hadn't heard about the SD card reader issue. How does that one manifest itself?

I should add a caveat that I haven't followed the issue closely, as I don't have a 5d3. I'm sure someone will correct me if I get it wrong, but the gist of it as I know is:

For some reason, unbeknownst to everyone outside of Canon, they stuck in a non-UHS-I card reader. That is, it has a slow SD card reader, the technology of which is rather old. So, if you're writing to both slots for redundancy it can only go as the slowest reader, slowing down your CF card write speed. I doubt they can fix it via firmware.

Re: CF Cards

RobertTheFat — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 17:07:38 GMT

@Skirball wrote:
@RobertTheFat wrote:
@Skirball wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Canon thoroughly botched the dual card reader in the the 5d3. But every camera has to have an issue, seems a relatively small one. Still, I'd expect they iron this out (as well as the slow SD card reader) in the next version.

The 5D3 hasn't had a firmware update in more than a year, so it's not like they haven't had time to get it right. But yeah, it's not an "A" issue.

I hadn't heard about the SD card reader issue. How does that one manifest itself?
I should add a caveat that I haven't followed the issue closely, as I don't have a 5d3. I'm sure someone will correct me if I get it wrong, but the gist of it as I know is:

For some reason, unbeknownst to everyone outside of Canon, they stuck in a non-UHS-I card reader. That is, it has a slow SD card reader, the technology of which is rather old. So, if you're writing to both slots for redundancy it can only go as the slowest reader, slowing down your CF card write speed. I doubt they can fix it via firmware.

Presumably the reason would have to be that they considered the SD slot to be a gimmicky add-on that serious photographers probably wouldn't use. But that just makes their failure to fix the other problem - the camera not remembering which card it's supposed to use - all the more surprising.

Re: CF Cards

Skirball — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 17:21:35 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:

Presumably the reason would have to be that they considered the SD slot to be a gimmicky add-on that serious photographers probably wouldn't use.

I doubt that. Dual card slots are anything but gimmicky. If they considered using SD cards gimmicky then they should have just used dual CF slots; it's too important of a feature to muck up with a 'gimmick'. That said, I don't think SD cards are near as "non professional" or "non serious" as some people on the internet make them out to be. Speed is the only fundamental difference in the two technologies, and that gap has closed to a point where it's arguable if it even makes a functional difference. Everything else is subjective.

Re: CF Cards

RobertTheFat — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 17:40:46 GMT

Skirball wrote:
RobertTheFat wrote:

Presumably the reason would have to be that they considered the SD slot to be a gimmicky add-on that serious photographers probably wouldn't use.
I doubt that. Dual card slots are anything but gimmicky. If they considered using SD cards gimmicky then they should have just used dual CF slots; it's too important of a feature to muck up with a 'gimmick'. That said, I don't think SD cards are near as "non professional" or "non serious" as some people on the internet make them out to be. Speed is the only fundamental difference in the two technologies, and that gap has closed to a point where it's arguable if it even makes a functional difference. Everything else is subjective.

The only other reason I can think of is that Canon couldn't stand the cost of a better SD reader. The 5D3 was already coming out at a price point far higher than the user community expected. (I, for example, immediately abandoned any thought of buying one and settled for a second 7D.) Maybe they didn't dare force it any higher.

Re: CF Cards

Skirball — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 17:56:16 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@Skirball wrote:
@RobertTheFat wrote:

Presumably the reason would have to be that they considered the SD slot to be a gimmicky add-on that serious photographers probably wouldn't use.
I doubt that. Dual card slots are anything but gimmicky. If they considered using SD cards gimmicky then they should have just used dual CF slots; it's too important of a feature to muck up with a 'gimmick'. That said, I don't think SD cards are near as "non professional" or "non serious" as some people on the internet make them out to be. Speed is the only fundamental difference in the two technologies, and that gap has closed to a point where it's arguable if it even makes a functional difference. Everything else is subjective.
The only other reason I can think of is that Canon couldn't stand the cost of a better SD reader. The 5D3 was already coming out at a price point far higher than the user community expected. (I, for example, immediately abandoned any thought of buying one and settled for a second 7D.) Maybe they didn't dare force it any higher.

That could be. Also, remember that manufacturers start designing equipment long before it hits the market, and often it's not a simply matter of swapping out a part for a new technology. Add into that - I don't know how much the slower speed actually affects the average photographer. Personally I don't fill up my buffer all that often, even on my slow 6D. Most the people that I would expect to fill the buffer on a regular basis would probably own a faster camera like the 7D series.

Re: CF Cards

TCampbell — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 18:56:03 GMT

I have a 5D III. Most of the time I use the CF card exclusively. It's faster.

But if I'm traveling and I don't have my computer with me, I will shoot to the SD card so that I can import images into my iPad or laptop. It's nice to be able to convert formats on-the-fly like that.

I also tend to shoot in RAW pretty much exclusively... but the iPad can't read a Canon RAW. Fortnately the 5D III has menu options to migrate data between cards and also has a built-in utility to produce JPEGs out of the RAW files (in-camera... so if I shoot RAW and realize I should have shot JPEG for compatibility with the iPad, I can convert after-the-fact by using the in-camera menu.)

Re: CF Cards

Skirball — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 21:35:48 GMT

@TCampbell wrote:
I also tend to shoot in RAW pretty much exclusively... but the iPad can't read a Canon RAW. Fortnately the 5D III has menu options to migrate data between cards and also has a built-in utility to produce JPEGs out of the RAW files (in-camera... so if I shoot RAW and realize I should have shot JPEG for compatibility with the iPad, I can convert after-the-fact by using the in-camera menu.)

Isn't there an iPad version of DPP or something that can convert it? I really hate to move to the Adobe subscription model, but I'm getting tempted, and that iPad version of Lightroom would be quite nice for travel. Of course, then I'd need an iPad since they don't seem in any hurry to issue a version for Android.

So, are you saying that you can shoot RAW only, and the 5d3 will do the conversion to jpg in-camera? That's a nice feature, I never feel like dealing with RAW + JPG shooting.

Re: CF Cards

TCampbell — Tue, 16 Dec 2014 23:29:30 GMT

Skirball wrote:

TCampbell wrote:

So, are you saying that you can shoot RAW only, and the 5d3 will do the conversion to jpg in-camera? That's a nice feature, I never feel like dealing with RAW + JPG shooting.

To my knowledge there is no iPad version of the Canon utilities or DPP (just the EOS Remote utility which supports WiFi-enabled EOS cameras.) There may be 3rd party utilities.

I have PS Touch on my iPad, it supports JPEG, GIF, PNG, and PSD (with the caveat that if you bring in a "layered" PSD they compress all the layers into a single layer and they recommend you save layers off to invididual files if you don't want to do that). But they don't have RAW support for any camera.

Apple makes two different accessories for iPad... one is an SD card reader, the other is a USB dongle. Both are designed specifically for cameras (you can't use the USB port for anything else.) I have used both to transfer images from my cameras and both work well.

The caveat is that if I import RAW images, they'll import and I'll see the embedded JPEG thumbnail that most RAW images have inside... but the image can't be opened because none of the software I have on an iPad can natively support RAW.

When you use the Canon built-in converter (my 5D III has it.. my 5D II does not), you get a screen that lets you configure everything you would normally have used when shooting JPEG... e.g. there's an option to set the white balance, color space, picture style, compression level, etc. etc. and it'll convert the images.

I'll typically pick the best images and just conver the ones I want rather than trying to do the whole card.

If you knew you were going to do this ahead of time, it'd be faster to put the camera into the dual-card mode... save the RAW files to the CF card and save the JPEG version to the SD card. That way you could drop the SD card into the iPad's reader and just import the whole thing... knowing that nothing needs converting and it'll read everything on the card.