topic Re: Looking to update my camera in General Discussion

Looking to update my camera

katie96 — Thu, 24 Sep 2020 17:37:48 GMT

I am currently using a canon EOS Rebel XTi and I want to upddate to a newer camera. I have 2 EOS lenses. The standard kit lense and the canon 75 - 300mm. I also use the Tamron18 - 270mm F/3.5-6.3 I am an amatuer but ready to move up. Any suggestions on what canon eos to consider.

My main interests are portraits (people and animals, nature, and horses in motion. I take many action shots. I was considering the canon EOS 80D but read it was not a good choice for action shots.

Thanks to any who respond

katie96

Re: Looking to update my camera

shadowsports — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 14:33:43 GMT

Greeting,

I vote for the 90D.

33MP

4k video

45 AF points, 27 at F8

Focus bracketing

11FPS

Articulating screen

Good high ISO performance

Released last year... etc etc etc....

Re: Looking to update my camera

amatula15 — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 03:16:58 GMT

I woulld suggest you look into the Canon 7D II

From what I read it is great for wildlife and sports.

I would have gotten it myself except it is a bit heavy for petite me.

I would check out reviews, info on this site, youtubes, and specs on that camera (and any others you are considering).

Do you have a local store to check them out for handling?

If not, maybe you can rent the 7D, 90D, and/or any other camera that interests you.

Enjoy!

Annie

Canon SL1, Canon EF 24mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens

Re: Looking to update my camera

Tronhard — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 09:55:05 GMT

May I suggest reading THIS POST . It might be worthy as an exercise to not only clarify your thinking, but also act as a guide for advice.

Re: Looking to update my camera

Wayne3 — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 13:34:16 GMT

I'm reading this thread with real interest as I am in exactly the same spot as Katie with the exception that by far most of what I have shot is wildlife.

I have an old Rebel T4i which I love and on another threat (on macro photography) wiser folks than me suggested a better lens will probably be my next purchase not a better body (my one good lens is the Canon 100-400mm).

I know my T4i will need a bit of serving (the flash no longer pops up and its interior needs a cleaning) and they may suggest it isn't worth getting fixed. Anyway, I was pondering if when the time comes if I should get another Rebel (now T8i) that alone will get me more pixels (18 to 24) more advanced focusing and bigger buffer (I shoot in raw so after about one second of continuous shooting I'm down to about 1 shot a second which if I have a bird in flight is a bit of an inconvenience). Or to move up to a 90D which has even a faster fps (10 per second I believe) and more pixels (31 I think). The value of the Rebel is less of a learning curve (or laziness perhaps). I'm not a technical photographer yet still using the basic zones a lot, and my fingers know them by heart. If I'm in the field and I see a group of birds I know without thinking that my camera is on the sports setting for one animal, if it is two or three, two spots up the dial is landscape; if it is a whole group, move the dial all the way up and back one and I'm at AV which is set to f11 right now. There is no thinking involved so in half a second I can shoot. I understand the 90D is more time consuming, move to SCN, select function, move camera to eye and the flock may be gone by now. But if it isn't with the faster fps and more pixels I may get a shot I would have missed otherwise. I'm on the fence... Sorry I'm rambling, so for a fairly new wildlife photographer would you abandon the Rebel and move up to the 90D or other camera or would you stick with the Rebel?

Thanks!

Wayne

Re: Looking to update my camera

amatula15 — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 14:23:54 GMT

It seems to me you answered your own question 🙂

I hope you folllow your heart!

All the best, Annie

Re: Looking to update my camera

Wayne3 — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 17:01:44 GMT

Hi Annie. I absolutely love your answer because when I first read it I confusedly thought I did? No, I am on the fence”. I had to reread my own post to recognize that I wrote a paragraph on my love for the Rebel and a sentence on why maybe I should move to the Canon 90D, which I suspect is what you noticed.

Thanks, Wayne

Re: Looking to update my camera

amatula15 — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 18:33:51 GMT

Indeed! I found with me the problem might be I had something in my heart to buy or do, but then I can let what I heard from others move me away from my heart/gut or confuse me somewhat. But I always learn and grow from the knowledge.

Re: Looking to update my camera

Tronhard — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 21:25:30 GMT

Hi Wayne:

I have read both your thread on macro photography and contributions to this thread with interest.

In my previous post you may have read my link to the questions that underly a decision to purchase camera gear - as you say yourself, this can be a mind-bending challenge as one navigates the plethora of options while dealing with issues of one's own preferences and comfort zones and getting a wide range of advice from seasons users - each with their own preferences based on their personal experience.

An excellent point you raise is on your comfort with the SCN modes in the Rebel series. I think we all live our lives within what I call comfort zones: patterns of behaviour that require little effort or stress. When we are young and continually learning, our comfort zones are flexibile: just try and stop children from pushing their boundaries! We continue to expand them in a structured sense as we are formally educated. For most people, once they have stopped that, their exploration reduces dramatically. What happens then is that their comfort zone hardens and it become a trap, because without the continual stimulus of learning success exceeding that of the stress of the unfamiliar, it easily becomes traumatic and our comfort zone traps us in a shell that is stressful to break.

A significant percentage of my work has been with wildlife photography - originally in Australia, then through Asia and finally in North America. There my interest was mainly in macro mammals - such as bison, bears, moose and wolves - animals one must be wary of approaching too closely, yet could move very quickly. Now, in New Zealand, there are very few large mammals - introduced deer and tar that are very hard to find, but the country is rich in a wide diversity of unique birdlife. These produce their own challanges as, by and large, they inhabit the dim reaches of the dense NZ bush and flit about.

I started off in photography back in the film days of around 1980 when camera electronics were relatively primitive. The Nikon F3's I bought had just manual and aperture priority settings. I also used the Canon A-1's, a model which was ahead of its time by offering P, Av, Tv and M options, yet almost all of my photography has been done in Av mode: for me, isolating the subject from its surroundings or encompassing a panorama with the Depth of Field is the key to the statements I want my photographs to make - and that is my personal choice. These days, with digital technology I have the luxury of setting auto-ISO to offer me more flexibility to get the shot I want by dictating aperture, but not risking too slow a shutter speed.

It is automatic for me to check the shutter speed in the viewfinder as I change settings to know if I am going to suffer subject movement (if that is what I want to avoid) or camera shake. One of the best things you can do for your photography is to become comfortable with using Av, Tv and M modes, they appear on any DSLR or MILC and mastering them frees you to being able to become familiar with, and effectively use any camera from any manufacturer. I use Canon predominently, but also use Nikon, Olympus and Sony gear - at that level they all work on the same principles. Stepping up your game involves more than equipment upgrades, it means putting in the study and practice to make the most of whatever gear you use and once you have stepped out of that constrictive comfort zone you will rediscover that is a very empowering and liberating thing...

In your case you seem very comfortable with the Rebel series because of their SCN mode and they are capable of producing excellent images. The next step up in capability, the Canon 80D and 90D, or the older but more wildlife oriented 7DMkII have definite advantages in the frame rate, focusing, dynamic range and the fact that the 7DII offers a degree of weather resistance, and still probably has the best subject tracking of any Canon APS-C DSLR: something that can be very valuable when out on a wildlife shoot.

What will fall within your choices depends on the budget, something that only you know. I will say this: if you have limited funds (and most of us do), then consider that the investment in lenses is more significant. I say this for two reasons. Poor glass will degrade every photo and lenses represent a much longer-term investment than camera bodies, which change with frequency, especially at the lower end of the market. Rebels used to change almost annually, while the XXD bodies would last 3-4 years and the XD bodies perhaps 5 years. There are great lenses out there that are 20+ years old. When I chose a main supplier for my gear I did so on the basis of the glass even though other brands had bodies that offered better dynamic range and even focusing - I have not regretted that.

You indicate that you currently use the Canon EF 75-300 lens. This is arguably Canon's poorest performer. If you are shooting long telephoto then you really want image stabilization which this model does not have, and the optics of the 75-300 series have always been less than stellar (to put it mildly). So I would suggest considering investing in glass as a priority and again we come back to the budget. If you want really long telephoto work there are some good lenses from Tamron and Sigma in the 150-600mm focal length range but getting one of those will leave with a big hole in the lower end of the range.

What I would suggest is considering two lens ranges:

For general purpose photography: The Canon EF-S 18-135 IS USM or STM versions are excellent lenses and there are tons of them out there in the market from people who got one as part of a kit and want something else. An alternative is the EF-S 17-55 IS USM lens. A much older unit and heavier but offers a constant aperture of f/2.8 which is significantly better than pretty much any other lens from Canon in this range.

At the telephoto end: I would recommend considering the Canon EF 70-300 IS USM lenses. I have written a lengthy article exploring the performance of these units HERE. You can likely pick up a good one second hand or, better still, refurbished by Canon with a warranty for a reasonable price.

I've written a lot for you to digest, but for me it is important that people get the best value from their upgrades and when you are going to invest in new gear there is more to consider than may at first meet the eye. Absolutely, you must feel comfortable with the technology, but don't be afraid to embrace new techniques that will empower you and allow you much more choice that will, in the end, offer the best investments.

Re: Looking to update my camera

Wayne3 — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 21:39:51 GMT

Thanks so much for the very detailed response Tronhard!

A couple things really resonated. First your comments on my comfort with the SCN modes, and maybe I should spend more time out of that comfort zone. That I can do immediately. I think the responses on my macro post already has me mucking around more the AV mode, actually getting a deeper depth of field for me. However I have never in my life used the TV mode and you said you are very careful with shutter speed. I'm not. I've assumed in SCN Sports the shutter speed is as fast as possible so I've ignored that so much I don't even know what a fast shutter speed is, I just assumed whatever it is, SCN Sports probably is using it, and well birds move quickly so that is what I want. I'll experiment with that a bit.

You've mentioned I probably should get better lenses. I think I'm ok with the telephoto lens. I must of mistyped. I don't have a 75-300. I have the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM (oops, pasting that made everything bold. I'm not yelling I swear). I'm really happy with that. But you mention for a general purpose lens I may want to consider the EF-S 18-135 IS USM. That has me interested. Is it just me, or does the 18-55mm kit lens that I received as a kit lense for the T4i focus waaayy slower than the 100-400. I'm finding I don't use the 18-55mm hardly at all now, I literally will try walking farther away from my animals rather than change the lens LOL.

Finally, in terms of budget, I think I'm in the middle. I suspect I may be looking at divorce court if I spent $10,000 on those fancy f1.4 prime lenses. But I'd spend a thousand. To me, that is still a lot of change.

You are right, you have given me a ton to digest, but for right now, I will try TV out on my camera.

Thanks!

Wayne

Re: Looking to update my camera

Wayne3 — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 21:45:16 GMT

Yes, that sounds like me too.

Wayne

Re: Looking to update my camera

Tronhard — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 22:42:13 GMT

The EF-L 100-400mm is a good lens, so you are absolutely right to keep that one. On the subject of the general purpose lenses, the 18-135 is a great lens, I have ended up with three of them - two of the STM version and one of the newer USM version. Frankly, there is not much optically to call between the STM and USM versions from what I have seen, so you may as well go for the STM and save some cash. If you are leary of buying second-hand I would recommend looking at Canon's refurubished gear site and you may see some units there. Essentially, they are as good as new, come with a warranty but at a lower price point.

If your 18-55 is the same age as your T4i then it is going to be MUCH slower to focus than either the STM or USM technology. The USM will be the fastest, but the STM is no slouch either...

If you want to stick to the Rebel line the T8i (850D) is out and you could get the body with the 18-135 lens as a kit perhaps. Note, however, that the SCN modes have been reduced so you will get the same issue as you mentioned about the 90D.

Here are a couple of reviews of this body:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/t8i.htm

https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-Rebel-T8i.aspx

https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-t8i/canon-t8iA.HTM

If you want good tutorial material on shutter speed check these links out:

https://www.photographytalk.com/beginner-photography-tips/shutter-speed-explained
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZnVucOeXfQ

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2020/07/photography-fundamentals-how-shutter-speed-changes-your-photos/
https://photographylife.com/landscapes/shutter-speed-explained-for-beginners
https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-exposure.htm

Re: Looking to update my camera

Wayne3 — Fri, 25 Sep 2020 23:11:15 GMT

Thanks Trevor!

I'm just looking over the article on shutter speed (bird in flight set to 1/800 to 1/2000). It will take me a while to dig through all your material, LOL. But I'll start with the shutter speed info.

Yes my 18-55mm came with the T4i so it is 7 or 8 years old.

Wayne

Re: Looking to update my camera

Tronhard — Sat, 26 Sep 2020 03:48:37 GMT

If you like video tutorials, there is one by National Geographic photographer Chris Bray HERE . Hopefully you won't be thrown by his Australian accent!

It might also be worthwhile going to your local library website and searching the catalogue for Lynda.com. This website has a huge range for video tutorials by excellent instructors that cover every aspect of photography from the basics to advanced topics, and from hardware to post production techniques. Normally access to this is by subscription, but many libraries offer their members free access - it's a great resource.

Re: Looking to update my camera

Wayne3 — Sat, 26 Sep 2020 20:13:37 GMT

First attempt at shutter priority 1/320, ISO 3200, apterture automatically set itself, but it was f16.

Re: Looking to update my camera

Waddizzle — Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:16:36 GMT

@Wayne3 wrote:
First attempt at shutter priority 1/320, ISO 3200, apterture automatically set itself, but it was f16.

Was ISO set to Auto, too. When you are in Av or Tv modes, they work better when you dial in an ISO setting. In this way, the camera is only controlling one leg of the Exposure Triangle. I recommend Av or M modes for wildlife and sports photography.

Re: Looking to update my camera

amatula15 — Sat, 26 Sep 2020 22:13:44 GMT

Love the image! And the bird melds with the leaves very well!

Re: Looking to update my camera

Tronhard — Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:01:49 GMT

@Wayne3 wrote:
First attempt at shutter priority 1/320, ISO 3200, apterture automatically set itself, but it was f16.

Hi Wayne:

First, congratulations on stepping out of the SCN comfort zone and trying new methods. Like all new experiences there is much to evaluate - as Henri Cartier-Bresson, the famous photographer said " Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst."

Deciding whether to go for M, Av or Tv as a means of controlling the image is the first, and one of the biggest decisions when engaging in photographing a subject type. The image exposure looks good with a decent amount of contrast and colour saturation, so the overall exposure settings work for me.

There are a couple of issues that bear further consideration.

1. The amount of noise (as Bill pointed out)

2. The movement of the head of the bird (is it a woodpecker?) is slight, but noticeable. That may not be a bad thing, but with just the slight movement, it neither gives us the bird's eye in clear focus, nor indicates the fast movement of the head against the still body to emphasize the speed of pecking - either of which is a valid artistic effect.

Looking at the EXIF data these are the settings of your shot:

Aperture Shutter Speed ISO Focal Length

f/16, 1/320sec, 3200, 400mm

Consider the principles of the exposure triangle where each change in any of the settings by one unit alters the exposure by 1 EV (exposure value). An EV represents a doubling (+1EV) or halving (-1EV) of the the exposure, and all of the values for aperture, shutter and ISO are aligned with them.

If I reduce the value of the f-number by 1 stop, I get less DoF but more light, i.e. +1 EV
If I increase the value of the f-number 1 stop I get more DoF, but less light, i.e. -1 EV
If I increase the shutter speed by 1 stop, I get less movement and less light i.e. -1 EV
If I decrease the shutter speed by 1 stop I get more movement, and more light +1 EV
If I double the ISO value, I get more noise, but more light sensitivity, i.e. +1 EV
If I halve the ISO value I get less noise, but less light sensitivity, i.e. -1 EV

The point is, using EV units allows you to switch up and down the values between the three variables using the consistent units of exposure, thus you would get the same exposure but different results with the following sets of modified values.

Aperture Shutter Speed ISO Change Result

f/16 1/320 sec 3200 Original settings

f/8 1/640 sec 3200 Av +1EV, SS -1EV & ISO - 0EV: shallower DoF, faster shutter, same ISO

f/8 1/320 sec 1600 Av +1EV, SS 0EV & ISO - 1EV: shallower DoF, same shutter, lower ISO - less noise

f/5.6 1/640 sec 1600 Av +2EV, SS - 1EV & ISO - 1EV: shallower DoF, faster shutter, lower ISO - less noise

Gauging Aperture and DoF:

Making sure your subject is in focus, but with just the right DoF is all about the aperture. Since you were taking your shot at some distance with a long telephoto three things come into play when considering your DoF:

a) The further the subject, the deeper the DoF

b) The longer the focal length, the shallower the DoF

c) The smaller the f-value, the shallower the DoF

The trick here is to decide (often quickly) how these things will impact on your choice of settings.

Like Waddizzle, by an large, I shoot wildlife in Av mode: even birds. This may seem counter-intuitive as one wants to control the movement of the bird, but very often, as in this case, you want to give some separation between the subject and its surroundings. (That is where using spot focus becomes helpful, so you can isolate the subject from the clutter.) However, the following will hopefully make sense, even if you choose Tv mode.

Unlike Bill, (and I respect his choice there) I personally let the camera choose the ISO, but I keep it in a conservative range - normally no higher than 800, especially considering this is an older camera with a less sophisticated sensor, however for this exercise we will stick with a maximum ISO of 1600.

What that does is allow me to consider just two setting in my viewfinder: Tv and Av. I can change either one (so this could work for Av and Tv mode too), but being immediately aware of the effect on the other.

At f/16 you are going to have quite a deep DoF, some of which you do not necessarily need, my first reaction would be to have reduced the f-value to f/8 (+1EV) or f/5.6 (+2EV). That leaves flexibility to improve shutter speed and/or ISO.

In this case, if I had an ISO set to a maximum of 1600, then I could select either of the following combinations:

f/16 1/320 sec 3200 Original settings

f/8 1/320 sec 1600 Av +1EV, SS 0EV & ISO -1EV: shallower DoF, same SS but less noise

f/5.6 1/640 sec 1600 Av +2EV, SS -1EV & ISO -1EV: shallow DoF, stop movement, less noise

If I was shooting in M mode I could set both aperture and SS and let the camera sort out the ISO, e.g.

f/5.6 1/160 sec 400 Av +2EV, SS +1EV & ISO -3EV: shallow DoF, increase movement, v low noise

f/8 1/160 sec 800 Av +1EV, SS +1EV & ISO -2EV: shallow DoF, increase movement, less noise

As you can see there are many choices, and practise and experience will help you make the operation simpler over time.

The trick now is take a lot of photos and experiment, then evaluate your images.

Re: Looking to update my camera

Tronhard — Sat, 26 Sep 2020 22:51:14 GMT

Sorry, I had to make a slew of changes as I got distracted and had some input errors. That should all be sorted now!

Re: Looking to update my camera

Wayne3 — Sun, 27 Sep 2020 03:47:25 GMT

Thanks Waddizzle,

Yes, I did dial in the ISO, although probably too high!

The light was low, and I had just read for birds the slow end for shutter speed is 1/800. I wasn't going to get close so I really bumped up the ISO. Of course, that meant the camera set the aperture to 16 instead of wide open (which is 5.6 at 400mm for my lens).Oops. Nonetheless, a good experiment for me. I chose shutter priority because after reading Trevor's comments I realized of the exposure triangle I have a vague sense of aperture and ISO. I had no knowledge of shutter speed, so messing around was my very rudimentary beginning to learn. I appreciate you folks guiding me along!

Wayne