topic Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3? in General Discussion

upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

amatula15 — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 19:43:51 GMT

Hi,

For awhile now I have been considering upgrading my Canon SL1 which I have owned for 6 years.

I had posted awhile back on this, but then looked elsewhere (Olympus, Panasonic) at image stabilized bodies (as sharp, stabilized images can sometimes be a challenge for me -- I hike so a tripod is not always feasible).

But I have been getting creative with stabilization and find myself improving in this area, so wondering if perhaps a Canon APS-C DSLR camera might work as an upgrade.

I do like the advanced functionality qand lighter weight of the 77D and T8i (vs the 80D and 90D which are heavier), such as HDR, bracketing, customizations... And I want to work with star trails and night photography a bit more, as well as using ND filters (have not done that yet).

I own the EF 24 mm F/2.8 IS and considering addeing the 18-55 F/2.8 and 10-18 mm lens if I stay with Canon APS-C.

What I am wondering would there be a noticeable difference iin image quality 77D vs T8i vs SL3?

(since I am a landscape photographer, better dynamic range is goo!)

And would one of those serve my purposes better than others?

Mostly I like to use out of camera JPEGs but want to "upgrade" that too and do some raw processing, but I don't want to spend a lot of time with it generally.

I want to stay light as I am a hiker who hikes long distances.
I don't want mirrorless yet due to its infant stages....

Thank you and all the best!
Annie

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

shadowsports — Sat, 27 Jun 2020 04:07:56 GMT

Greetings,

Of those 3,.. th T8i is the best value overall. Not just because its newer. It meets or exceeds the performance capabilities of the other bodies in several areas and is a better investment in both the short and longer term.

Lens recommendations.

Your 24mm pancake does pretty well.

the Canon 17-55 is considered to be one of the cadillac lenses for APS-C. A lot more than a 18-55 and worth it.

You'll need to take the type of photography you do into consideration. with a 24, 17-55.. you may want to invest in something with greater reach so you have additional flexibility and do not overlap... but this depends on your needs.

I have owned the 10-18 and 10-22.. the 10-22 is a better lens overall, so if you are considering between the two its worth the extra $$ in my opinion.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 14:34:03 GMT

"I want to stay light as I am a hiker who hikes long distances."

The T8i is not all that heavier than the SL2 or 3, a little bit but I doubt it would be noticeable on a hike. The T8i would be my recommendation. The addition of the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens is going to be heavier. In my book it is well worth it.

I don't want mirrorless yet due to its infant stages....

I agree the cameras are in the beginning stages but the R lenses are not. Lenses is where its at, not the body. For the average person cameras like the EOS R is probably the way to go especially if you are not heavily invested in EF glass. You are not. There may not be any new development in or any new EF or EF-S lenses. They are at their end.

Besides you mentioned you looked at Olympus and Panasonic, aren't they both mirrorless?

As to using Raw, most of the time it is well worth it. If you import your photos to your computer, the conversion is seamless and requires no further input on your part if you don't want to. Raw converters like the free, comes with every Canon camera, DPP4 read all your camera settings and automatically apply it to your photos so they look exactly as you thought they would. The big difference is the ability to adjust and edit with much greater range than a jpg can offer. Plus this is a total non-destructive process so if you change your mind you can revert to the original at any time. When you use jpg a considerable amount of your photos data is simply deleted. Yup, just thrown in the trash can and is totally unrecoverable. Raw never does that.

I prefer Lightromm but the free Canon DPP4 is very good. Light editing in DPP4 can be mastered in an hour or so by the average person. Then......................................

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 14:55:16 GMT

"I do like the advanced functionality qand lighter weight of the 77D and T8i ..."

To me the worse choice is the 77D. It is just an odd duck. The T8i all the way over it. If you can handle its increased weight I would very much prefer the 90D for hikers as the 90D has some weather sealing. The T8i doesn't. The 90D also has some other better specs.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

Waddizzle — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:38:00 GMT

" I had posted awhile back on this, but then looked elsewhere (Olympus, Panasonic) at image stabilized bodies (as sharp, stabilized images can sometimes be a challenge for me -- I hike so a tripod is not always feasible)."

If you are using a tripod, then having an image stabilized lens is not important, as is an image stabilized sensor. If you are not always using a tripod, then perhaps you should be. Do you want to take landscape photos, or snapshots for postcards?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"I do like the advanced functionality qand lighter weight of the 77D and T8i (vs the 80D and 90D which are heavier), such as HDR, bracketing, customizations... And I want to work with star trails and night photography a bit more, as well as using ND filters (have not done that yet)."

The Rebel Series of camera bodies are not known for advanced functionality. They are known for ease of use, small size, and light weight. The lack weather sealing, in-camera HDR, AFMA, and many other desireable features for photo enthusiasts. So, this scratches both the 77D and the T8i off the list, because they lack features you may be looking for in a camera. I recommend the 80D or 90D, with the EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM kit lens. Check the Canon online Refurbished Store for great deals on the 80D. The 90D is still a little too new to be offered there, so it seems.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"I own the EF 24 mm F/2.8 IS and considering addeing the 18-55 F/2.8 and 10-18 mm lens if I stay with Canon APS-C.

What I am wondering would there be a noticeable difference iin image quality 77D vs T8i vs SL3?

(since I am a landscape photographer, better dynamic range is goo!)

And would one of those serve my purposes better than others?"

The EF 24mm f/2.8 STM is an okay lens. Its' primary design goal was compact size, not image quality. The EF 50mm f/1.8 STM is actually a great lens, even for landsacapes. It would be a great lens to capture panoramic shots. The EF-S 10-22mm is a great lens, with an all metal body and internal focusing and zooming. I would highly recommend it for hikes.

Do you mean the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM lens? It is a great lens for photography, but a disappointment for videography. Camera bodies with Dual Pixel AF do not go into Movie Servo AF mode with that lens. If you want to shoot video with Movie Servo AF, then you want an STM zoom lens, not a prime, but a zoom lens. For some odd reason STM primes disable Movie Servo AF.

Finally, always shoot RAW. Use Canon's DPP software to edit and convert RAW files into JPEGs. If you are just starting out, then stick with always buying Canon lenses, at least until you learn quite a bit more about photography.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

RobertTheFat — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 18:16:43 GMT

@shadowsports wrote:
Greetings,
Of those 3,.. th T8i is the best value overall. Not just because its newer. It meets or exceeds the performance capabilities of the other bodies in several areas and is a better investment in both the short and longer term.

Lens recommendations.

Your 24mm pancake does pretty well.

the Canon 17-55 is considered to be one of the caddilac lenses i APS-C. A lot more than a 18-55 and worth it.

You'll need to take the type of photography you do into consideration. with a 24, 17-55.. you may want to invest in something with greater reach so you have additional flexibility and do not overlap... but this depends on your needs.

I have owned the 10-18 and 10-22.. the 10-22 is a better lens overall, so if you are cionsidering between the two its worth the extra $$ in my opinion.

There is one drawback to the 17-55 lens that is rarely mentioned. On even a larger APS-C camera such as the 7D, it casts a substantial shadow in the area covered by the built-in flash, effectively rendering the latter unusable. So if you buy that lens, you are constrained to using external flash only, My wife and I both have the lens and haven't found the unusability of the built-in flash to be a problem. But some might, so it's best to know about it beforehand.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 18:25:06 GMT

Robert she is a landscaper so I don't see the lens and flash conflict to be an issue. There are two lenses that are not "L" lenses that I am really high on. One is the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens and the other is the Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens for Canon. One of or both of these lenses could cause me to break ranks and buy a 90D. Steady boy, steady. I think they are that worthy. And the plus is the 90D itself because it is a darn good, maybe the best, cropper there is.

If I was Miss Annie that combo would be coming home today. (And of course switching to Raw format.)

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

Waddizzle — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 18:57:52 GMT

I would not recommend the Sigma 18-35mm simply because DPP cannot perform lens correction on it. The Sigma lenses have vignetting, which needs correction. For someone who just starting out, I think it is best to stay with Canon lenses, so that they do not need to go out and buy a third party application like Lightroom or Photoshop, just to get lens correction for 3rd party lenses.

I like the EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8, too. But, it is not one I would want to take on hike. It is only a little more robust than the 18-55mm kit lens. Great for event photography, but not my first choice for hiking in the wild. I would recommend the EF 17-40 f/4L IS USM, instead.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

amatula15 — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 19:40:49 GMT

Thank you, everyone!

I purchased a used Sigma 17-50 F/2.8 during lunch. I can return it if I don't like it -- will check it out tomorrow. I did love the weight (the store also had a Canon 18-55 F/2.8 too)

The T8i does have HDR filters and some level of customization. I believe it was the replacement for the 77D.

EBiggs: I was referencing the M lens for APS-C. I agree the RF lens are progressing but that is full frame.

But I did read of the new RF 24-105 F/4.1-7.1 and that sounds like a step in the right direction, both in terms of weight and variety (although 7.1 does not sound appealing for landscape)

I am unsure - because I want to dive into wildlife too - if FF is the the way to go considering the weight of the lens. I have been happy with APS-C image quality.

I do love the D90 but itt is a bit heavier than I would want but read some lens cannot handle the 32 mp (although I am sure if you put quality lens on it, then it would be fine).

The 50 mm F/1.8 ssounds like a great idea! (even without IS) -- I can check into that.

Thank you, again, everyone. Now I just have to see if the 90D is too heavy...

Annie

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

ebiggs1 — Sat, 27 Jun 2020 14:50:18 GMT

Annie,

Anytime you choose lenses with large apertures like f2.8 on the Canon and f1.8 on the Siggy you are talking weight. No way around it. Fortunately for a landscape photographer large apertures are not required or even desired. As for general purpose these are two of the best lenses made anywhere.

"I would not recommend the Sigma 18-35mm simply because DPP cannot perform lens correction on it."

This has to be the most ridiculous reason for not getting the best lens for your needs. Because you can't use a free editor.

"The 50 mm F/1.8 ssounds like a great idea!"

It's not. 50mm on a cropper is not a friendly focal length. Add to the fact you can't zoom it and it is not a lens I would ever recommend for a hiker or landscape photographer. It is a specialized purpose lens. It make a wonderful second lens.

It seems weight is still is your main most concern. Balancing that and what you want to do the T8i and the standard kit EF-S 18-55mm is STM lens is probably your best go. Later on if you feel you need an ultra fast lens do check out the Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens.

One other thing check out the Black Rapid strap. It will make the weight of camera gear disappear.

I use them on all my 1 series with very heavy lenses on them. Sometimes two at a time!

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

Waddizzle — Sat, 27 Jun 2020 16:42:58 GMT

@amatula15 wrote:
Thank you, everyone!

I purchased a used Sigma 17-50 F/2.8 during lunch. I can return it if I don't like it -- will check it out tomorrow. I did love the weight (the store also had a Canon 18-55 F/2.8 too)

The T8i does have HDR filters and some level of customization. I believe it was the replacement for the 77D.

Thank you, again, everyone. Now I just have to see if the 90D is too heavy...

Annie

Yes, the T8i may have in-camera HDR. It probably requires that you shoot JPEG, and it probably does not save the original files. Most of the time, you want to process HDR images in post, but I do not think that feature has been added to DPP, yet.

But, I mentioned how Rebels lack many features that photographers find to be highly desireable. HDR is probably not in anyone's top 5 because most people prefer to process the images in post. One key feature that Rebels lack is weather sealing.

The 90D seems able to survive getting wet, although I would never let it get quite that wet. If one of your primary use cases, are taking hikes and capturing landscape photos, then you will want a camera with a more rugged body than a Rebel series.

------------------------------------

I like to hike in the woods, too, although not very long hikes. I use a Black Rapid Sport camera strap when I am walking about on level ground. It is not comfortable to wear when you are hiking in woods. Besides, the camera is open to being bumped and banged.

I use a Lowepro Toploader Holster when I am hiking in the woods. Often times i use the holster when I am wandering around on level ground at an event, because it "hides" the camera. The Black Rapid Strap is great to use when you need your camera in your hands "right now." Iuse it most often when shooting sports, or at an indoor social event.

If you're taking long hikes, then you want gear that does not need to be pampered. This goes for both your camera body and your lens. I would advise either the 80D, or preferably the 90D. The T8i may be great in the backyard, but it may be a little too fragile for long hikes, which almost always involves some sort of climbing up and down hills, and going through brush.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

amatula15 — Sat, 27 Jun 2020 17:06:08 GMT

Thank you, Ebiggs!

Especially on the Black Rapid strap! I will check into that!

I am glad that lens caliberation is not an issue.
I am not that advanced a photographer and don't want to stress any work caliberating cameras or riguring out how to handle non-Canon lens issues in post editing software.

Actually, my lens desires are something in the 9-16 range -- I want to experiment with that.

I do love the idea of a F/1.8 lens (despite the added weight) as I don't usually carry a tripod and could use a higher ISO with a F/1.8 lens than I could with a 3.5-5.6 lens.

I am going to check out my 17-50 F/2.8 Sigma and see how that goes!

Annie

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

amatula15 — Sat, 27 Jun 2020 17:11:06 GMT

Thank you, Waddizzle,

I will look into the Lowepro Toploader Holster too!

Yes, weather proofing does sound better, but I know there are ways to protect gear (covers, etc) and I have done some of that with my SL1. It's managed to survive 6 years although I haven't put it through the tests in your photo with rain, etc.

I'd prefer weather resisentence though...

The 90D weighs more and from what I read on this board and elsewhere does have some issues (which hopefully firmware updates will resolve). But I can check it out!

Thank you and all the best!

Annie

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

ebiggs1 — Sat, 27 Jun 2020 18:20:03 GMT

"Yes, weather proofing does sound better,..."

Weather sealing is as easy and cheap as a zip plastic bag and a rubber band.

You are placing too much attention to post editing than you need to. Most of it now is totally automated. Upon import from the camera, presets will handle lens correction and apply your selected in camera setting and add your copyright. All as you sip a nice mocha latte. Weight still seems your main most important issue. One last thing don't believe all you read on the ole inner web about the 90D or any gear for that matter.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

Waddizzle — Sat, 27 Jun 2020 19:18:12 GMT

"You are placing too much attention to post editing than you need to. Most of it now is totally automated. Upon import from the camera, presets will handle lens correction and apply your selected in camera setting and add your copyright. All as you sip a nice mocha latte. Weight still seems your main most important issue. One last thing don't believe all you read on the ole inner web about the 90D or any gear for that matter."

Sorry, but that is incorrrect.

You are talking about what Adobe Photoshop can do. You are forgetting that Canon camera bodies do not offer lens correction on JPEGs created in the camera on third party lenses, and neither does their Digital Photo Professional software..

Canon's DPP software does not allow you to edit EXIF data much less add copyright information to imported files. In fact, Canon's DPP Software doesn't even import files. All it does is browse folders on your hard drive.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

ebiggs1 — Sun, 28 Jun 2020 15:57:01 GMT

"Sorry, but that is incorrrect. "

Sorry but I am not incorrect. And I was talking Lightroom not PS and certainly not DPP4. It is common knowledge I am not a DPP4 fan. I only recommend DPP4 as a last resort to folks that don't want the best editor or don't want to buy one. Other post editing software also offer presets that wil do that, too. Darktable comes to mind as one and I believe it is free also.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

RobertTheFat — Sun, 28 Jun 2020 17:14:27 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"Sorry, but that is incorrrect. "

Sorry but I am not incorrect. And I was talking Lightroom not PS and certainly not DPP4. It is common knowledge I am not a DPP4 fan. I only recommend DPP4 as a last resort to folks that don't want the best editor or don't want to buy one. Other post editing software also offer presets that wil do that, too. Darktable comes to mind as one and I believe it is free also.

I will say only this about DPP4: It is not a panacea, and there may be times when you do need a more powerful editor. But spend the time it takes to learn to use it correctly before accepting as truth the incessant cackling of its detractors.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

ebiggs1 — Mon, 29 Jun 2020 14:13:26 GMT

No off brand lens support is more than a “cackling” deficiency. You will admit?

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

RobertTheFat — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 03:24:26 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
No off brand lens support is more than a “cackling” deficiency. You will admit?

I guess that depends on which, if any, off-brand lenses I own, how often I use them, and what I use them for. And presumably it depends on how good the off-brand lens correction is in any given editor.

Re: upgrade from the SL1 - T8i, 77D, SL3?

ebiggs1 — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 14:31:02 GMT

"I guess that depends on which, if any, off-brand lenses I own..."

Robert, with all due respect, it wasn't about you but what is best for Miss Annie. Specifically the, what may be the best crop combo ever made, 90D and Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens for Canon.

"...it depends on how good the off-brand lens correction is in any given editor."

LR, my recommendation, and/or PS are the best lens correction third party lenses. However if they are not to your exacting standards, you can program your own. Switch to the Develop Module, look for the Lens Corrections Panel. Check the box "Enable Profile Corrections". You will see an immediate correction in the image. The lens information is displayed below.

I am not that familiar with the free Darktable but I suspect it has a similar function. If cost is a big issue that is. There are others with varying costs and features. I do not blame Canon for not including lens support for off brand products, I wouldn't either if I was in control of the company. However, DPP4 is just not complete, yet. Like LR it can do the most used basics but in the end some REAL editor is needed even if is not on every photo taken.

The top of the line as good as it gets is Bridge and Photoshop. IMHO, as always, of course.