topic Re: No longer a rumor in General Discussion

No longer a rumor

John_SD — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 14:45:28 GMT

The future is here. Nikon just debuted two full-frame mirrorless cameras -- the Z7, a 45.7 megapixel beast and the Z6, a 24.5 megapixel camera. Early reviewers are blown away, especially by the flagship Z7, which is scheduled for retail release this fall. I can only hope that Canon is able to offer serious competition when it debuts its mirroless offerings months later.

For Canon, it seems that being late to the party is a big part of its DNA. Hope it can seriously compete in this realm, because the landscape just changed. See Engadget, Gizmodo, DPreview, The Verge, Techradar, etc., etc.

Re: No longer a rumor

RobertTheFat — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 14:56:32 GMT

At this point I'm just interested to learn whether either company can offer a battery capable of keeping up with the power requirements of a FF mirrorless camera. I fully believe that mirrorless is the wave of the future, even for professional use. But I need convincing that we're there yet.

Re: No longer a rumor

Waddizzle — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 14:57:12 GMT

Canon has had the 5DS and 5DSr on the market from a couple of years now. Nikon is just catching up when it comes to high resolution, IMHO. I notice that they have a new line of lenses, too, which is just more money to spend.

What advantage does a mirrorless have over a DSLR, anyway? You could make a more compact body, one not so thick to allow for the internal mirror to swing. It could be smaller. But, my big hands might find it awkward to hold. I know my M3 is a little awkward to hold. I cannot “grip” it like I want to.

A mirrorliess could be quieter to use. It might also be capable of a faster frame rate, something which is limited by the focusing speed of your lens, anyway, not unless you want OOF photographs.

I would hope that a Canon mirrorless would be directly compatible with the EF mount, but I do not hold out hope for that.

Re: No longer a rumor

shadowsports — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:10:14 GMT

I'm with Bob. Happy to embrace the technology, but am definitely not going to buy a first gen. Im also not going to switch to Nikon, ever. Its good, I've seen spectacular results with a D850, but I'm not jumping ship.

Re: No longer a rumor

RobertTheFat — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:10:09 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:
...
I would hope that a Canon mirrorless would be directly compatible with the EF mount, but I do not hold out hope for that.

To make it directly compatible would require maintaining the EF mount's greater distance between the lens and the sensor, whose sole purpose is to accommodate the mirror. I don't thinnk anyone thinks that's going to happen. And anyone who has fought to close even a giant Domke bag containing a 5D4 with a 70-200 on it is unlikely to want it to happen.

Re: No longer a rumor

John_SD — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:11:58 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
At this point I'm just interested to learn whether either company can offer a battery capable of keeping up with the power requirements of a FF mirrorless camera. I fully believe that mirrorless is the wave of the future, even for professional use. But I need convincing that we're there yet.

The battery issue for mirrorless will take some time, but eventually Canon and Nikon will get there. These are generally engineering issues that get improved upon over time.And sooner rather than later, I hope.

I too think mirrorless is the future. That said, if I were an established pro or a guy with substantial money invested in traditional DSLRs and its glass, I would not consider making a move to mirrorless at this early stage, if ever. I don't think we're there yet. But for guys who haven't invested in full-frame at all, or who have minimal investment in it, I for one would be choosing mirrorless.

Re: No longer a rumor

John_SD — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:21:25 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:
Canon has had the 5DS and 5DSr on the market from a couple of years now. Nikon is just catching up when it comes to high resolution, IMHO. I notice that they have a new line of lenses, too, which is just more money to spend.

What advantage does a mirrorless have over a DSLR, anyway? You could make a more compact body, one not so thick to allow for the internal mirror to swing. It could be smaller. But, my big hands might find it awkward to hold. I know my M3 is a little awkward to hold. I cannot “grip” it like I want to.

A mirrorliess could be quieter to use. It might also be capable of a faster frame rate, something which is limited by the focusing speed of your lens, anyway, not unless you want OOF photographs.

I would hope that a Canon mirrorless would be directly compatible with the EF mount, but I do not hold out hope for that.

Yes, Nikon is introducing a new line of lenses for the mirrorless, but they are also releasing an adapter for the F-mount to accomodate the guys who have a lot of existing Nikon glass. I expect Canon to do the same if need be.

As for the grip of the smaller Z7, it is said to be chunky for its size, and I hope that begins a trend.

Re: No longer a rumor

John_SD — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:24:53 GMT

@shadowsports wrote:
I'm with Bob. Happy to embrace the technology, but am definitely not going to buy a first gen. Im also not going to switch to Nikon, ever. Its good, I've seen spectacular results with a D850, but I'm not jumping ship.

The Z7 is said to be a direct mirrorless competitor to the D850. However, if I already had a D850, I would not likely be making the switch to the Z7.

Re: No longer a rumor

Waddizzle — Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:42:56 GMT

@John_SD wrote:
@Waddizzle wrote:
Canon has had the 5DS and 5DSr on the market from a couple of years now. Nikon is just catching up when it comes to high resolution, IMHO. I notice that they have a new line of lenses, too, which is just more money to spend.

What advantage does a mirrorless have over a DSLR, anyway? You could make a more compact body, one not so thick to allow for the internal mirror to swing. It could be smaller. But, my big hands might find it awkward to hold. I know my M3 is a little awkward to hold. I cannot “grip” it like I want to.

A mirrorliess could be quieter to use. It might also be capable of a faster frame rate, something which is limited by the focusing speed of your lens, anyway, not unless you want OOF photographs.

I would hope that a Canon mirrorless would be directly compatible with the EF mount, but I do not hold out hope for that.
Yes, Nikon is introducing a new line of lenses for the mirrorless, but they are also releasing an adapter for the F-mount to accomodate the guys who have a lot of existing Nikon glass. I expect Canon to do the same if need be.

As for the grip of the smaller Z7, it is said to be chunky for its size, and I hope that begins a trend.

I am aware of the Nikon adapter. To me, it is a work around, which is not always a good thing.

Because of small tolerance differences in manufacturing, there is always a very small amount of play between a lens mount and a lens. Some “L” lenses have a rubber ring to seal the lens mount, which helps stabilize the lens. Any time you add something between the camera body and lens, like an adapter or extender, you only add to the tolerance variations.

This can affect how well a lens seems to focus. I think tolerance variations in manufacturing is what makes some lenses front or back focus. Canon makes very good extenders, which hold the big lenses firmly in place. I

Re: No longer a rumor

shadowsports — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 02:21:09 GMT

Just visited Nikon"s website. Took a look at the Z6 & 7. Still no fully articuling screen. Nikon is never going to get it right apparently. Missed opportunity. My opinion anyway.

Re: No longer a rumor

dbhuff49 — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 05:01:10 GMT

I am a Canon lover since film in the mid 60's! Nikon and Canon will now have to keep up with Sony's Alpha A7R. IMHO, SLR was replaced by DSLR, the future will be mirrorless, no reflex (retractable mirror). When you look back at the last 50 yrs... what's in store in the next 50 yrs.

Re: No longer a rumor

ebiggs1 — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 12:44:12 GMT

Not interested an I am not a buyer in mirrorless.

Re: No longer a rumor

John_SD — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 14:04:03 GMT

@dbhuff49 wrote:
I am a Canon lover since film in the mid 60's! Nikon and Canon will now have to keep up with Sony's Alpha A7R. IMHO, SLR was replaced by DSLR, the future will be mirrorless, no reflex (retractable mirror). When you look back at the last 50 yrs... what's in store in the next 50 yrs.

At this stage, the A7 is the leading mirrorless, by far. However, I don't care for Sony's weird GUI and menu system. I find Canon and Nikon's much more intuitive. So for me, I would go with one of those two. I look forward to Canon's full-frame offerings.

Re: No longer a rumor

John_SD — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 14:29:01 GMT

@shadowsports wrote:
Just visited Nikon"s website. Took a look at the Z6 & 7. Still no fully articuling screen. Nikon is never going to get it right apparently. Missed opportunity. My opinion anyway.

You are right, it is a tilt screen, but isn't fully articulating. I too would prefer the fully articulating screen. Low-level and ground- level shots would be much easier with the fully articulating screen. But the bigger issue I have is that the Z7 comes with only one card slot, and that is for XQD. For a flagship camera, the lack of 2 slots is going to turn some potential buyers away. I wish it would have come with one of each, like the D850.

Re: No longer a rumor

wq9nsc — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 15:43:01 GMT

Mirrorless holds no interest for me at the moment. If I was just starting out in photography or planning to switch brands then maybe.

A lighter and smaller body doesn't interest me at all because the current and recent past 1D bodies provide a nice feel and balance with the telephoto lenses I shoot with so much. My daughter and some of her high school teammates coached their first series of games in a tournament yesterday and I shot with my 1DX M2 mostly with a 70-200 F2.8 plus 1.4X from 9 A.M. until 3:30 P.M. and the weight of that combo wasn't an issue. The lens I use for night high school games does weigh more but a lighter body is likely to make the overall ergonomics of long periods of hand held shooting worse instead of better.

Further improvement in sensor noise performance is far more important to me than going mirrorless and with sustained shooting at 14 FPS from the current 1DX I don't need anything with a higher frame rate.

When I first started coaching my daughter in soccer 12 years ago there were a lot of parents shooting from the sidelines with various flavors of Canon Rebels and a lesser number of similarly priced Nikon DSLR cameras. Now the only thing I see at these youth games and also at high school games are parents using smart phones. Going mirrorless isn't going to bring back the low and mid-end of the market because most people are perfectly happy with low fidelity audio and low fidelity photos from their "devices".

Rodger

Re: No longer a rumor

John_SD — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 16:05:00 GMT

@wq9nsc wrote:

A lighter and smaller body doesn't interest me at all because the current and recent past 1D bodies provide a nice feel and balance with the telephoto lenses I shoot with so much.

Understood, but as I shoot often in our deserts and mountains, I am not interested in dragging a brick around with me in those environments all day. The full-frame mirrorless camers coming out now would appeal to someone like me, especially as I have not made the transition to full-frame yet. YMMV.

Re: No longer a rumor

Waddizzle — Sun, 26 Aug 2018 17:25:38 GMT

wrote:

I can relate to your brick comment. However, the high quality lenses can be heavy, too. I have an M3 for when I want to “travel light”. I pair it with the Canon EF-M 22 f/2 IS STM, the Rokinon 14mm T3.1, or the Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM. But, that is only for when I am urban settings, which are comparatively cleaner than deserts and mountains.

When I am in the woods I want gear that is better protected against dust and moisture than the M3. I usually go with a 6D, with grip, and either a 70-200 or the 100-400. Depending upon where and how far I am going, I may carry a second body with a lens.

I carry the camera, with the big lens mounted, in a Lowepro Top Loader Holster, which has a sling mount, across your shoulder.. It allows me to have two free hands, and is excellent protection for my gear. My model also has a waist band option, to prevent it from swinging.

How do you carry your gear when hiking the deserts and mountains? I use different combinations of bags and straps, depending upon how long a hike I have, and what gear I want to carry.

Re: No longer a rumor

RexGig — Mon, 27 Aug 2018 02:40:32 GMT

I watched most of the live Nikon presentation. (I missed the first few minutes.) It was enough to make me feel comfortable being a DSLR shooter, for the foreseeable future. Neither I, nor my equipment, will become pumpkins at midnight. I remain comfortable buying DSLR cameras, and the lenses made for these DSLR cameras. Nikon DSLR shooters should feel relieved that Nikon is not orphaning the F-mount lenses. A very interesting F-mount 500mm f/5.6E lens was a major part of the presentation.

I have also seen some thoughts posted by nature/wildlife photographer Steve Perry, by the DPR team, and by some of the other usual vloggers. A major concern seems to be AF, for active subjects. It seems doubtful that the Z7 can replace the D850, D5, D500, or even the D7500, for photography of highly-active subjects, such as birds, wildlife, and most sports. I am not saying the the Z7/Z6 are failures! I am saying that I agree with Steve Perry, and some other folks, that the Z7/Z6 lack the AF capability to be DSLR-beaters. See the DPR TV video, in particular, as they had the Z7 in-hand, for their comparison.

I will add that I shoot Nikon D5 and D850 cameras, as well as Canon cameras as new as the 5D Mark IV. (I love lenses made by both, too much to leave either system.) Yes, the D5 and D850 have “better” AF than the 5D Mark IV, but in realistic conditions, including some fairly low light, as the sun set, my 5D IV, with the excellent EF 100-400L II IS, can keep up with one of our Nikkor AF-S 80-400G lenses, being used on new-generation Nikon DSLR camera. (My wife, who uses Nikon D500 and D850 cameras, is envious of my EF 100-400L II IS.) If the 5D IV can still run with Nikon’s best DSLRs, I am comfortable that the Z7/Z6 are not a threat to Canon DSLRs.

To be clear, yes, one could probably set-up an AF comparison test that my 5D IV would fail, but which my D5 or D850 would pass. I would rather not take a detailed detour down that bunny trail.

I owned a “grey” EOS M3, which I bought pre-owned, before Canon USA officially imported them. I mostly used it with the EF-to-EOS M adapter, and found it quite capable and like-able. (Unfortunately, it died due to submersion on flood water, last year.) I have yet to try any of the newer EOS-M cameras, but I believe Canon can build a competent up-sized M.

The EOS-M system ate the Nikon 1 system for breakfast. Nikon moved first, and about a year or so later, if I recall correctly, Canon launched its “answer.” Past history does not necessarily predict future performance, but, this bit of history does put things into perspective.

I am no expert. I do have a substantial herd of new cameras, but that was largely due to a one-time financial windfall earlier this year, following my retirement. My unused “comp time,” alone, paid for the D5.

Consider these to be scattered thoughts, from a fatigued brain.

Re: No longer a rumor

shadowsports — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 15:53:16 GMT

@John_SD wrote:
@shadowsports wrote:
Just visited Nikon"s website. Took a look at the Z6 & 7. Still no fully articuling screen. Nikon is never going to get it right apparently. Missed opportunity. My opinion anyway.
You are right, it is a tilt screen, but isn't fully articulating. I too would prefer the fully articulating screen. Low-level and ground- level shots would be much easier with the fully articulating screen. But the bigger issue I have is that the Z7 comes with only one card slot, and that is for XQD. For a flagship camera, the lack of 2 slots is going to turn some potential buyers away. I wish it would have come with one of each, like the D850.

Yes. This was probably done for cost savings in manufacturing and to maintain a certain profit margin. Maybe Canon will put out 3. With the 3rd tier offering dual slots. Come on Canon, mop the floor with them... but I'm still not buying one.

Re: No longer a rumor

John_SD — Fri, 31 Aug 2018 02:31:14 GMT

@Waddizzle wrote:
wrote:
Understood, but as I shoot often in our deserts and mountains, I am not interested in dragging a brick around with me in those environments all day. The full-frame mirrorless camers coming out now would appeal to someone like me, especially as I have not made the transition to full-frame yet. YMMV.
I can relate to your brick comment. However, the high quality lenses can be heavy, too. I have an M3 for when I want to “travel light”. I pair it with the Canon EF-M 22 f/2 IS STM, the Rokinon 14mm T3.1, or the Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM. But, that is only for when I am urban settings, which are comparatively cleaner than deserts and mountains.

When I am in the woods I want gear that is better protected against dust and moisture than the M3. I usually go with a 6D, with grip, and either a 70-200 or the 100-400. Depending upon where and how far I am going, I may carry a second body with a lens.

I carry the camera, with the big lens mounted, in a Lowepro Top Loader Holster, which has a sling mount, across your shoulder.. It allows me to have two free hands, and is excellent protection for my gear. My model also has a waist band option, to prevent it from swinging.

How do you carry your gear when hiking the deserts and mountains? I use different combinations of bags and straps, depending upon how long a hike I have, and what gear I want to carry.

I definitely need to upgrade the way I carry my camera. I use a camera strap with it, crossbody style. I typically use my 18-135mm STM lens, which isn't particularly big or heavy, and so I've gotten used to this arrangement. And to date, I have not noticed any dust or dirt issues. I do make a habit of cleaning the camera and lens thoroughly with a puff blower and lens cleaners every time I come in from the field. However, I will definitely upgrade when I move up to full-frame. I'll probably go with something like the BlackRapid Curve Breathe should I step up to one of the new full-frame mirrorless rigs.