topic Re: Which body? in General Discussion

Which body?

inkjunkie — Mon, 02 Oct 2017 05:44:55 GMT

I know this is a VERY loaded question. And has probably been asked hundreds of times. I take pictures at the local dragstrip. Some landscape pictures. And lots of pictures of our dogs. Do 0 printing, only share them to Facebook. Was using an EOS40D. Been wanting a new camera so I bought the EOS7Ti. Really like the camera. Started shooting video with it.

But.....I want to get a full frame camera...any suggestions? Been looking at the refurbished Canon page...

Re: Which body?

Waddizzle — Mon, 02 Oct 2017 10:33:15 GMT

What is your budget? There is the 6D, and the 5D3. I would suggest the 6D, simply because of price. It should easily handle landscape, dogs, and dragsters.

Re: Which body?

RobertTheFat — Mon, 02 Oct 2017 13:31:53 GMT

@inkjunkie wrote:
I know this is a VERY loaded question. And has probably been asked hundreds of times. I take pictures at the local dragstrip. Some landscape pictures. And lots of pictures of our dogs. Do 0 printing, only share them to Facebook. Was using an EOS40D. Been wanting a new camera so I bought the EOS7Ti. Really like the camera. Started shooting video with it.
But.....I want to get a full frame camera...any suggestions? Been looking at the refurbished Canon page...

You're proposing to do what many of us have done, so we're not likely to tell you it's a bad idea. But you should at least be able to articulate why you want to do it. For the type of photography you say you do, especially given the fact that large prints are not a requirement, it isn't obvious that the benefit is worth the cost. Could you open up a bit about your long- and short-term objectives?

Re: Which body?

TCampbell — Mon, 02 Oct 2017 15:25:56 GMT

One important note to remember is that "full frame" camera bodies cannot use "EF-S" lenses. Your T7i likely came with at least one EF-S lens and you may have more. That would meant that upgrading your system could involve not just the body purchase, but also at least one lens purchase. The upside is that once you've upgraded, those lenses work on all EOS cameras and Canon's best glass is made for these full-frame cameras.

Canon's Rebel series bodies previously had a very simple focusing system (9 AF points ... a center point and 8 addtional points arranged in a diamond pattern). Meanwhile their pro cameras had advanced focus systems.

Those advanced focus systems finally made their way down into the Rebel line and the T7i has a focus system that's somewhat similar to what a 7D had a few years ago (not quite the same, but similar).

So while the "Rebel" series are generally priced and meant to be consumer-friendly entry-priced cameras... the T7i is the most significant upgrade to any Rebel series body in many years. Most previous new cameras offered incremental improvements over the prior model... the T7i offered quite significant improvements over previous models. It finally hits a point where it's blurring the line between the entry level bodies vs. the mid-range bodies. It does this so well... that it's sibling, the 77D (which has identical sensor and specs... but adds an extra control dial and an extra LCD screen for easier use) actually is classified as a mid-range body. The T7i is no slouch.

The 6D, meanwhile, still has a focus system which more resembles the system in previous rebel models except it has 11 AF points (it looks a lot like the 9 point system except they added an extra focus point just left & right of the center point.) Also the 6D's continuous burst speed is about 4.5 frames per second. The 6D was introduced as an "entry level" full-frame body. Previous full-frame bodies were always about $2500 and up. This was the first full-frame body in the industry that was introduced at a price point less than $2k.

The 6D is not optimized for action photography. It is, however, very good at low light situations.

The 5D III has a very advanced focus system that can better handle action photography. It doesn't have the blazinglly fast continuous burst speeds of the 1D X bodies (up to 16 fps for the 1D X Mk II with a buffer large enough to hold 170 RAW files) or even the 7D bodies (10 frames per sec for the 7D Mk II with a buffer large enough to hold 31 RAW files). The 5D III is about 6 frames per second (the 5D IV is 7 fps).

Your T7i is also rated for about 6 frames per second.

You may find that your T7i is a bit better at the track shooting action photography...

But you will also likely find that a 6D would be better at portraits, landscape, and low-light.

The 5D III would pull ahead as it has a better focus system than the T7i, a bigger buffer, and the same 6 FPS burst speed (it's harder to get a fast burst speed when the mirror and shutter are physically larger). Basically it would be an upgrade all the way around... but will cost a bit more than the 6D.

A refurb 6D on the Canon online store is about $1200

A refurb 5D III on the Canon online store is about $2100

(note these are in the "refurbished" section. A "new" copy will cost more.)

...and of course these prices don't include lenses (in case you have to upgrade a few of those).

Re: Which body?

inkjunkie — Mon, 02 Oct 2017 15:51:18 GMT

The all important budiet. I am disabled. Still have a fairly decent income. While I could very easy it pull out a credit card and pay $4500 for a body I would prefer not to...especially if it something I will never be able to utilize all of its functions...a given what I recently read I have no real need for a 50 megapixel camera....assuming that the few different blogs I recently read were truthful about megapixel size for posting Social Media pictures. Would not have a problem spending $2500 on a body.

Re: Which body?

inkjunkie — Mon, 02 Oct 2017 16:05:44 GMT

This is a bit difficult for me to explain. I have seen photos from various different folks that were taken on full size cameras. I realize that these photos were more than likely shot in raw and massaged some in an aftershocks program. But this pictures were very eye catching. The focused image was very sharp...with noticeably more detail than what I take.

I realize that I need to learn how to take better photos before I can utilize a better body.

After posting this last night I realized that I need tof not be so hooked on a full frame. That I need to get better lenses and learn how to use them..and the body correctly. But it doesn't change the fact I would like to get a full size body.

Long and short term objectives...this sounds like a bit of a cop out but I just want to become a better photographer. The owner of the track has given me permission to be trackside next year. In exchange he is expecting me to provide him with some eye grabbing stills and video.

I am one of those folks that sets his goals a bit higher than they should be. I have severe Cervical and Lumbar Spinal stenosis...so often times achieving my goals has become **bleep** near impossible...of late I have repeatedly let myself down...I don't want this to be another one of "those times".

I hope this answered your question...if not please just say so...I will put some more thought into this...

Re: Which body?

jrhoffman75 — Mon, 02 Oct 2017 16:34:20 GMT

If you aren't printing and only posting JPEGs to Facebook I don't think you will see any benefit to a full frame camera.

But, if you are like me, I know you want to prove this to yourself.

Consider renting a full frame camera and appropriate lens and use both at a typical venue where you shoot. Then you will know.

Re: Which body?

Waddizzle — Mon, 02 Oct 2017 22:33:00 GMT

I think that there is a significant difference between an APS-C sensor and full frame sensor at the higher ISO settings. With that said, for most of the shooting scenarios that you have described a high ISO vale won’t come along too often, not unless you’re shooting outdoor action at night.

Your T7i is capable of producing nearly the same quality images as a full frame at the lower ISO settings. It should be able to track subjects better than a 6D, too. But, that doesn’t mean that a 6D cannot track subjects well, because it can.

If you have that sort of budget, then I would recommend investing in professional grade zoom lens. Your photos will never be better than the quality of your lenses. I would suggest either the EF 70-200 f/2.8L IS II USM, or the EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM.

Having a wide angle lens and fast prime in your bag doesn’t hurt, either. Take a look at what Canon calls its “Portrait and Travel Kit”, or the “Advanced Lens Kit”.

https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/portrait-and-travel-two-lens-kit

Either one of those kits is a winner.. BTW, the EOS 6D Mark 2 is an excellent camera, too. I think it might be what you are looking for in a camera body. It has a full frame sensor, and the same AF system as the T7i. Just remember, the glass is where the rubber hits the road.

You can't get the full frame body without getting a coupl...

ScottyP — Tue, 03 Oct 2017 16:19:34 GMT

You can't get the full frame body without getting a couple of full frame compatible EF lenses. It is also true that upgrading your lenses will make an immediate noticeable improvement in image quality; much more so than adding a full frame body would.

Why not do this in logical stages then? Go buy a couple of great lenses and see how good a job your very capable T7i can do with them as you work on your photography. Then decide if you want to go full frame or not and if you do you will have the lenses too.

I would recommend the EF 70-200 f/2.8 IS II lens for sure. As a bonus the 200mm zoom gives you reach like a 320mm zoom when mounted on your crop sensor body.

Re: You can't get the full frame body without getting a coupl...

jrhoffman75 — Tue, 03 Oct 2017 21:18:46 GMT

https://petapixel.com/2017/10/03/full-frame-vs-crop-sensor-shootout-can-tell-difference/

Re: You can't get the full frame body without getting a coupl...

Waddizzle — Tue, 03 Oct 2017 22:24:15 GMT

@jrhoffman75 wrote:
https://petapixel.com/2017/10/03/full-frame-vs-crop-sensor-shootout-can-tell-difference/

Meaningless, IMHO. Without knowing the ISO exposure settings, the comparisons are meaningless. I have already admitted that there is little difference at the lower ISO settings. And, the article points out that they used wide aperture settings to keep ISO low.

My point has been, and still is that the differences show up the most at higher ISO settings, upwards of ISO 3200 and ISO 6400. Compare two photos taken at ISO 128000. In most cases, it will be like night and day.

Re: You can't get the full frame body without getting a coupl...

Waddizzle — Wed, 04 Oct 2017 00:26:51 GMT

A full frame sensor shines at the higher ISO settings. I woke up to a butterfly before sunrise, in the morning dew, at 45 degrees.

EOS 6D Mark II, w/ EF 24-105mm f/4 IS USM - 1/32, f/5.6, ISO 25600, @ 105mm, No Cropping

EOS 6D Mark II, w/ EF 24-105mm f/4 IS USM - 1/32, f/5.6, ISO 25600, @ 105mm, roughly 50% Cropping

An APS-C sensor cannot come close to this level of low noise at ISO 25600.

Re: Which body?

ScottyP — Wed, 04 Oct 2017 10:23:32 GMT

@inkjunkie wrote:
This is a bit difficult for me to explain. I have seen photos from various different folks that were taken on full size cameras. I realize that these photos were more than likely shot in raw and massaged some in an aftershocks program. But this pictures were very eye catching. The focused image was very sharp...with noticeably more detail than what I take.
I realize that I need to learn how to take better photos before I can utilize a better body.

After posting this last night I realized that I need tof not be so hooked on a full frame. That I need to get better lenses and learn how to use them..and the body correctly. But it doesn't change the fact I would like to get a full size body.

Long and short term objectives...this sounds like a bit of a cop out but I just want to become a better photographer. The owner of the track has given me permission to be trackside next year. In exchange he is expecting me to provide him with some eye grabbing stills and video.

I am one of those folks that sets his goals a bit higher than they should be. I have severe Cervical and Lumbar Spinal stenosis...so often times achieving my goals has become **bleep** near impossible...of late I have repeatedly let myself down...I don't want this to be another one of "those times".
I hope this answered your question...if not please just say so...I will put some more thought into this...

I hear you. Your solution as far as equipment goes will either be better lenses or better lenses plus a full frame body. There is no possible way the answer is just a full frame body since your current crop lenses won't work on full frame, and because glass just makes a bigger difference than bodies anyway. I promise if you get a 70-200 f/2.8 IS II and you shoot it at large apertures (f/2.8 or so) you will see your subject will pop out from the background and the image will be sharp and contrasts compared to any kit lens you had. You will notice a difference.

If you are shooting in decent light the crop and the full frame will give pretty indistinguishable results in most scenarios, and in many cases the superior autofocus of your T7i may best the simpler 6d. The lenses are another story. Start with a good EF L lens or two. You'll need it anyway if/when you go full frame.

Re: Which body?

jrhoffman75 — Wed, 04 Oct 2017 10:54:11 GMT

Remember what the OP said:

"Do 0 printing, only share them to Facebook"

Re: Which body?

RobertTheFat — Wed, 04 Oct 2017 13:30:01 GMT

@jrhoffman75 wrote:
Remember what the OP said:

"Do 0 printing, only share them to Facebook"

Which is arguably inconsistent with his subsequent assertion that the track manager will be counting on him for "eye grabbing stills and video". Reading an OP's mind is often difficult, and it certainly seems to be so in this case.

Re: Which body?

jrhoffman75 — Wed, 04 Oct 2017 13:45:15 GMT

Stills and video can be posted to FB.

I’m not sure that’s inconsistent if the track manager wants to boost his social media presence. If a business is on FB it’s all about “likes”.

But I do agree the more clear the question the better the answer.

Re: You can't get the full frame body without getting a coupl...

ebiggs1 — Fri, 06 Oct 2017 14:59:20 GMT

This silly debate goes on forever. The truth is some FF cameras will offer a distinct advantage in noise levels. FF sensors are not inherently sharper, less noise, than sub-full frame sensors. It is the pixel size that determines most of this.

Advantages of a FF sensor go beyond low light noise performance to things such as DR (Dynamic Range) and TR (Tonal Range). Made possible because of the fact you have more pixels. More importantly, most cameras with larger sensors also tend to have more powerful internal processing units.

Carry this to the extreme, say compare a 1Ds Mk II (FF) to a 7D Mk II (cropper), which has better low light performance. Most will opt for the 7D2. The ongoing improvement in sensors and image processing means current APS-C sensors are as good or better in low light situations as a FF were a few years ago. In fact it can be narrowed down even further to just different models available today.

Re: You can't get the full frame body without getting a coupl...

RobertTheFat — Fri, 06 Oct 2017 15:39:59 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
This silly debate goes on forever. The truth is some FF cameras will offer a distinct advantage in noise levels. FF sensors are not inherently sharper, less noise, than sub-full frame sensors. It is the pixel size that determines most of this.

Advantages of a FF sensor go beyond low light noise performance to things such as DR (Dynamic Range) and TR (Tonal Range). Made possible because of the fact you have more pixels. More importantly, most cameras with larger sensors also tend to have more powerful internal processing units.

Carry this to the extreme, say compare a 1Ds Mk II (FF) to a 7D Mk II (cropper), which has better low light performance. Most will opt for the 7D2. The ongoing improvement in sensors and image processing means current APS-C sensors are as good or better in low light situations as a FF were a few years ago. In fact it can be narrowed down even further to just different models available today.

Which brings up a question I've thought about a bit lately: How do the 5D3 and the 5D4 compare in low-light performance? I've found the 5D3 to be excellent in that respect, and one would suppose that the newer sensor of the 5D4 would be even better. But as Ernie points out, pixel size matters; and the 5D4 crams almost half again as many pixels on a sensor of the same size. Does the newer technology cancel out the effect of the additional pixels? Depending on what's important to a potential buyer, it could make a big difference, given that right now a 5D4 costs $1000 more than a 5D3.

Re: You can't get the full frame body without getting a coupl...

ScottyP — Fri, 06 Oct 2017 21:37:40 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@ebiggs1 wrote:
This silly debate goes on forever. The truth is some FF cameras will offer a distinct advantage in noise levels. FF sensors are not inherently sharper, less noise, than sub-full frame sensors. It is the pixel size that determines most of this.

Advantages of a FF sensor go beyond low light noise performance to things such as DR (Dynamic Range) and TR (Tonal Range). Made possible because of the fact you have more pixels. More importantly, most cameras with larger sensors also tend to have more powerful internal processing units.

Carry this to the extreme, say compare a 1Ds Mk II (FF) to a 7D Mk II (cropper), which has better low light performance. Most will opt for the 7D2. The ongoing improvement in sensors and image processing means current APS-C sensors are as good or better in low light situations as a FF were a few years ago. In fact it can be narrowed down even further to just different models available today.
Which brings up a question I've thought about a bit lately: How do the 5D3 and the 5D4 compare in low-light performance? I've found the 5D3 to be excellent in that respect, and one would suppose that the newer sensor of the 5D4 would be even better. But as Ernie points out, pixel size matters; and the 5D4 crams almost half again as many pixels on a sensor of the same size. Does the newer technology cancel out the effect of the additional pixels? Depending on what's important to a potential buyer, it could make a big difference, given that right now a 5D4 costs $1000 more than a 5D3.

Look at DXO Mark. While their "overall rating" is subjective and opaque, their ratings on low light appear to be based on some objective criterion.

Re: You can't get the full frame body without getting a coupl...

ScottyP — Fri, 06 Oct 2017 21:46:22 GMT

Look at their number for "Sports". It is the highest ISO setting at which they deem image quality to be good. The 5d4 gets 2995 while the 5d3 was in the 2293.

Even if their definition of "good" and yours probably differ, the numbers are at least presumably based on some consistent threshold of image quality that is the same every time. So a 5d4 at ISO 2995 would look the same as a 5d3 at 2293 looks.