topic Re: while I continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t in General Discussion

while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is that?

Miri — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:50:31 GMT

Even their large mega pixel camera outshines Canon offerings. Canon just seems to do better in marketing 😞

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

photonut — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 14:30:25 GMT

That's much too broad of a statement as you neglected to provide any details as to which types and model cameras you are comparing.

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

khooby — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:11:46 GMT

Well for a start, why do all their sensors lag so far behind Nikon's? I'm referencing DxOMark measurements here. While DxOMark might not be the most accurate guys around, there still shouldn't be that much of a disparity.

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

jfo — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 15:58:39 GMT

What would be a "good" answer to these kind of questions?

In the whole Canon vs. Nikon (aka 'the civil war'), most photographers working professionally have figured out that each brand has their pluses and minuses. There is no calculation or measurement to fully quantify how one is "better" than the other.

I'm pretty sure Canon won't chime in to give you answers because you have to understand that this is the essence of making a product: create something that fits market needs with features and a price point acceptable to generate a profit.

P.S. I've never heard complaints about picture quality in the Canon vs Nikon debate before, usually only mentions of different color tints. Where/when is this a practical issue other than in scientific "tests"? Seems almost like a 'straw man' argument for Nikon vs. Canon.

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

JELPhotography — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:29:36 GMT

over the course of time, one is up, then the other

the biggest thing that sold me on canon was the human-computer-interface - or "ergonomics" - or however you want to call it

canon is still tops in that dept

i know that's an extremely subjective assessment, but as long as canon's images still "wow" me (like they have since my t2i days - through the 7D and now with the 1dx) - i see no reason to jump ship

also, have you ever had to take a camera in for service? have you experienced their customer relations?

WOW

i've seen nikon people respond on forums indicating nikon could take some lessons from canon in that dept

as long as canon keeps me happy.. i'm fine right where i am

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

killswitch — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:36:48 GMT

As much as I love Canon bodies and lenses, I wish and only wish they'd improve on capturing shadow detials a little better. Tried lifting shadows on Nikon D600 and I was just blown away with all the details it capture plus better noise control in dark areas.

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

bvukich — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:15:41 GMT

I don't think anyone would turn down a little extra DR, but I think overall the features on Canon bodies are better than Nikon. Plus Canon glass is better than Nikon except for a few missing lenses (e.g. 12-24/2.8).

Re: while I continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

David_Hull — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:16:21 GMT

Forget the terms, IQ and Image Quality as they are meaningless. There is nothing wrong with the quality of the images produced with any Canon camera that I have seen assuming it is properly used and used within it's limitations. This same thing can be said for any camera. You would be at a complete loss to walk through a glary of images shot by competent photographers and identify which was shot by Canon and which originated from a Nikon capture device.

The real issue is sensor dynamic range or more correctly "camera" dynamic range since the culprits in this crime are not entirely in the sensor itself. Where Canon lags behind Nikon (actually Sony who makes the sensors in question) is in terms of read noise at low SNR which primarily impacts the shadows of the photographs making it more difficult to lift shadows from Canon equipment in post than it is to do so with Nikon bodies that are e/w Sony sensors. Additionally the shadow noise of the typical Canon camera seems to exhibit repetitive patterns in it's shadow noise that the other guys do not which further reduces the DR beyond what you see in the DxO plots.

The root cause of this (many believe) lies in Canon's system architectural choices. While Nikon/Sony have chosen to implement a distributed A to D conversion regime on the sensor itself, Canon have chosen to do this off-chip using a wide band ADC which provides lower performance in terms of the number of effective bits. Sony gets 14 bits (stops) of DR while Canon (by virtue of their architectural choices) seems limited to about 12.5 bits (stops). This shows up in the DxO DR curve and in all those lovely artistic shots of Bar-B-Q lids and backs of lens caps that the banding crowd loves to flaunt about.

Most people who post about this stuff really don't understand it, they confuse the pattern noise with the DR shown by the DxO curves. They are not really the same. The 'banding" most likely comes about due to slight variations in the gain of the various analog signal paths coming out of the sensor to the external ADC array.

IMO Canon needs to address this somehow if for no other reason than competitiveness and corporate pride, I suspect that they will at some point. In the mean time there is really no issue in terms of what you call "picture quality" that cannot be worked around using time honored photographic techniques.

Re: while I continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

bvukich — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:36:34 GMT

@David_Hull wrote:

Sony gets 14 bits (stops) of DR while Canon (by virtue of their architectural choices) seems limited to about 12.5 bits (stops).

I totally agree with your post, but I'm compelled to point how much the quoted portion annoys me (aimed not at you, but DXO).

Getting a claimed 14.4 stops out of a 14 bit sensor is impossible, and merely an artifact of their normalization process (down to 8MP). I'm not debating that the D800 has less DR than the 5D3/1Dx, I accept that it is higher. And most reasonable people realize that DXO is biased towards Nikon and "adjusts" their methodology to favor their preferd brand, but touting comical metrics isn't doing anyone any good.

Second, and something you didn't touch on, but still bothersome to me; is their claim of better high ISO performance of the D800/D600 than the 5D3 or 1Dx. Their DR conclusion is correct, if slightly distorted in magnitude, whereas their high ISO conclusion is clearly, without a doubt, wrong. Heck, ISO6400 on either of the Canons looks as clean or cleaner than ISO1600 on either of the Nikons. Biased much?

Re: while I continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

David_Hull — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:18:04 GMT

bvukich --

I tend to agree WRT DxO. I don't know if they are biased or not but I can't figure out how you can get 14.4 bits out of a 14 bit converter. I have been working with ADC's for the last 20 years and have never seen anything like that :-). However, to me the bigger issue with the current Canons is the pattern noise which comes about (as far as I can guess) from the analog muxing to the off chip converters. I think this is more problematic than the 2 stops less DR. My 5DIII has less of this than my 5DII did, though so it DOES appear that they worked on it. For anyone worried about this, in the case of teh 5DIII, it cleans up nicely with the Nik NR tool.

As for the top end (high ISO end) the same DR curve pretty much shows that the Nikon/Sony sensor and the Canon sensor are equivalent as far as I can tell. One of the guys on DP Review keeps track of the quantum efficiency of these things and I believe his latest measurement shows the 5DIII QE to be 49% compared to the D800 at 57% (or something like that). This is pretty much a wash as far as I am concerned. It is a big improvement for Canon though given that the 5DII was at 33%.

Re: while I continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

David_Hull — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:24:03 GMT

Aside from all of this DR stuff, I think that the real place that Canon lags behind Nikon is in terms of "band for the buck". Nikon delivers the D800 for $3k, Canon's equivalent sits at $3.5k. Nikon just launched their D600 at $2.1k which has specifications similar enough to the 5DIII to make people think twice about the 5DIII I think.

Then there is the AF system that they put in the 6D -- it looks to be the same as what they had in the 5DII (what is up with that?).

Anyway, like the OP I use Canon gear and continue to do so but some of their business decisions as of late seem a bit strange.

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

svhoyw — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 22:53:00 GMT

Hi,

Pricing is an issue. Take the 5Dm3 and the 24-70 mkII. Comparing to other options out there I really consider to sell all my Canon glas and vote with my wallet soon if nothing change. I have used Canon for more than 20 years, but I feel not wel treated recently and I will pull the plug soon if nothing changes. So please act ASAP or you loose another customer soon.

Best regards,

Steve

Re: while I continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

khooby — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:44:03 GMT

Thanks David for that excellent technical explanation! I've always wanted to hear from someone with the relevant know-how 🙂

I wonder about the 6D's AF system too, but it seems that on paper it's not entirely pointless. At least if you compare it to the D600's TINY focusing area (heck, even the 7D's seems very slightly small to me) and low-light focusing...

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

RexGig — Sat, 17 Nov 2012 04:26:31 GMT

I prefer the ergonomics and controls of my Canon 7D cameras, and the 5D Mark III continues that trend. When I have to hand-hold a camera for extended periods, and shoot in the dark, ergonomics and controls are VERY important.

The newer Nikons, up to and including the D800 and D600, feel more brick-like in my hands, and have controls that differ from earlier Nikons I have used. (I still use older Nikons.) My aging right wrist starts to ache almost immediately if I hold a D800 or D600 with just my right hand bearing the weight. This is an individual thing, of course, but very important to me.

I am lucky, as I am paid to spend much of my work time using cameras. My employer does not require that my images be recorded by any brand of camera.

Would 36 MP be nice? Well, perhaps, but 18 MP is still plenty for right now. 10 MP is actually enough most of the time, for my needs. The 5D Mark III remains at the top of my wish list?

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

Miri — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 16:36:55 GMT

http://photorumors.com/2012/11/21/dxomark-pentax-k-5-ii-is-currently-the-best-aps-c-camera/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PhotoRumors+%28PhotoRumors.com%29

i am not a pixel peeper, but where is the corporate pride?

CLS has been in Nikon and canon puts some capabilities in 7d but not 5d3, what? Why?

Nikon/Sony sensors seem to improve and canon just confuses the market with more models with basically same sensor but crippling features.

then there are the great center pinch lens caps,wow! Nice expensive plastic.

canon is just not attractive in terms of offerings and pricing.

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

jfo — Sat, 24 Nov 2012 21:55:18 GMT

@Miri wrote:
http://photorumors.com/2012/11/21/dxomark-pentax-k-5-ii-is-currently-the-best-aps-c-camera/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PhotoRumors+%28PhotoRumors.com%29

i am not a pixel peeper, but where is the corporate pride?
CLS has been in Nikon and canon puts some capabilities in 7d but not 5d3, what? Why?
Nikon/Sony sensors seem to improve and canon just confuses the market with more models with basically same sensor but crippling features.
then there are the great center pinch lens caps,wow! Nice expensive plastic.
canon is just not attractive in terms of offerings and pricing.

Sounds like you want to buy Nikon! Go for it!

You won't get an engineering or marketing answer for your questions here. LIkewise, try to ask Nikon why they don't have lenses comparable to the 70-200mm f/2.8 IS II or 8-15mm f/4 fisheye. Canon whoops on them with these.

Each photographer (+cinematographer/videographer) decides the "best" system for their needs including, as other people have discussed, lens choices, features, ergonomics, etc.

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

David_Hull — Wed, 28 Nov 2012 17:27:59 GMT

I can’t quite figure out the fascination with Nikon CLS -- it must be that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence or something like that. I am currently using a 5DIII with the 600EX RT and I am amazed at how well it works. I don't see how a D800 and an SB900 could do any better but, at the same time, I doubt that it is any worse either. I think that Canon has Nikon beat with the latest round of flash equipment, it works well and has a radio trigger built in. What is it that you see in CLS?

As for the Sony/Nikon sensor thing, the only place that they have Canon beat is in terms of read noise (shadow SNR at low ISO). In everything else the two companies appear to be on par. If your photography routinely involves the need to lift shadows a large amount or if you are one of those “techno-dilettante” types who can’t be satisfied w/o knowing that their gear excels in every measurable parameter, you may be better off with something from Nikon (make it something recent). I would love to see Canon solve this, I believe that they need to, and I am quite sure that they will but it is hardly the huge end of the world thing that some people make it out to be.

Re: while i continue to be a loyal Canon user, Canon lacks behind Nikon in picture quality, why is t

Samsen — Tue, 18 Dec 2012 07:01:29 GMT

This statement is very loosely placed.

I don't see that lower IQ in question her and then which model what lens and what other variables.

If at all the difference of any comparative class tools between Canon and Nikon are very minimal and both are excellent photocapturing tools. Its good for consumer to have the choices and you won't go wrong in either way.

Only problem I have with Nikon is that "Spell Check" here can not recognize Nikon and wants me to replace it with"Nixon":):)