topic Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose. in General Discussion

Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

leogomez2 — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 00:07:27 GMT

I travel for work, and take pictures for fun when I travel. Currently I have two 5d mark IV cameras, and I walk around with a double camera harness.

One camera with a 70-200 2.8

Second camera with a 24-70 2.8

I usually carry two more lenses, the 85 1.2 and the 16-35 2.8.

At the end of a full day... my back HURTS. I do not want to sacrifice quality (at least, not a lot...), and if at all possible, I do not want to sacrifice the flexibility of the 24-200 2.8 range that the lenses give me (16-200 if you count the third lens)

So... I have considered several options.

1. Move to APS-C (I LOVE the photos I take but honestly... I do not print them) Equivalent APS-C lenses seem to be lighter (if at all possible, I do not want to move away from 2.8 aperture...)

2. Move to the RF lenses (especially the 70-200 which is a lot lighter than the EF) Now... EOS R seems... less solid than it should be. I thought of getting the lower end RP while waiting for the mark IV equivalent of the series, which we know is coming.

Should I downgrade to the EOS 7?

Should I get the EOS R´s with the RF lenses?

Should I get the RF lenses, but with the temporary RP bodies?

If budget was not an issue (but the back pain was), what would you do?

Thanks in advance!

Leo.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

Waddizzle — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 05:53:05 GMT

You do not need to alter your gear. You may simply need to rethink what it is you want to photograph before you venture out.

I, too, have a bad back. I cannot carry weighty gear for extended periods of time, either. If you can go most of an entire day, count your blessings. I am lucky if I can go an hour lately. For this reason, I have decided to go with shoulder and messenger bags. I used to carry an entire kit in a backpack. No more, just cannot do it, anymore.

I have realized that I cannot carry entire kit everywhere I go, and that has nothing to do with a bad back. You cannot always carry a trinity of f/2.8 lenses, 16-200mm, everywhere you go. Yes, you can, if you are shooting from primarily one location. But, if I am "out and about" I pick two bodies, 2-4 lenses, a single camera Black Rapid sling, and carry a shoulder or messenger bag.

In other words, when it comes lenses I decide to go long, or to go short. Of course, which direction to go entirely depends upon what I am shooting on a given day. Most days, I am shooting landscapes and cityscapes, or I am shooting sports and wildlife. I always carry a 35mm or 50mm prime with me, sometimes both in the shoulder bag.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

shadowsports — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 15:19:26 GMT

+1 on a BlackRapids Sling, its a game changer. Gives you both hands back. Can't be beat. Wife and girlfriend approved because you can still hold hands. <<<<<

I use a Sling Pack in bad weather. LowenPro Sling Pack 250AW

You cannot bring all your gear... back breaking for sure.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

ebiggs1 — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 17:26:11 GMT

"...(I) take pictures for fun when I travel. ... I have two 5d mark IV cameras, and I walk around with a double camera harness.

One camera with a 70-200 2.8

Second camera with a 24-70 2.8

~~I usually carry two more lenses, the 85 1.2 and the 16-35 2.8.~~

At the end of a full day... my back HURTS."

First leave one Mk IV home. Second ditch the 85mil and certainly get rid of the 16-35 zoom. Do use a Black Rapid strap. I routinely, not so much anymore, carry two 1 series both with fairly heavy lenses. It is what you get used too, I suppose.

You don't do it day in and day out, like I did, so you are not used to carrying all that gear. And, you don't need it all the time!

Along with the Black Rapid take the Canon case for the 70-200. It will hold either lens when not on the single Mk IV.

If I were going to try and down size what you have I would buy the 90D and buy a Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 DC HSM Art Lens for Canon EF. Keep the ef 70-200mm f2.8L, too.

Sell the 85mm anyways.. Why do you want it at all? It is such a specialized lens, I admit I love mine and will likely never get rid of it but it seems so out of place with what you have said. The 16-35mm zoom needs to go ,too. Sad.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

ebiggs1 — Sat, 11 Jan 2020 17:57:42 GMT

As a side bar on the wonderful ef 85mm f1.2 L is the ef 50mm f1.0 L. Yes that's right not a typo a f1.0. Any way I was fortunate enough to get to use the ef 50mm f1.0. Most people have never even seen one let alone touched one. You can still find them on the used market and they are generally in good shape. Probably do to the very high price usually in the five grand range. Not in my price range, then or now!

Anyway what does that have to do with the ef 85mm f1.2 L? It is the basically the same lens only in a different FL.

I believe if I remember correctly Canon used the 50mm lens bodies to construct the new 85mm f1.2 L. I guess a little way to have, almost, the glorious 50mm f1.0 L.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

Tronhard — Sun, 12 Jan 2020 17:35:29 GMT

At the risk of being beaten up here, one thing I would consider is going from the 70-200 f2.8 to the 70-200 f4 MkII. It weighs about half of what the 2.8 beast does, and personally I can work around the loss of one stop of exposure, especially with the 5DIV's improved sensor to give you more ISO flexibility. You get 5 levels of IS and the lens is a beauty...

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

Waddizzle — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 18:20:18 GMT

@shadowsports wrote:
+1 on a BlackRapids Sling, its a game changer. Gives you both hands back. Can't be beat. Wife and girlfriend approved because you can still hold hands. <<<<<

I use a Sling Pack in bad weather. LowenPro Sling Pack 250AW

You cannot bring all your gear... back breaking for sure.

I love the Black Rapid Sport, when I am in pretty much one [spot] shooting sports. It is also good for having free hands. But, wearing it does tend to attract attention in casual settings. You look like a pro photographer. This is why I like hiding the camera inside of holster or a shoulder bag. Slings are good, but are not very secure in urban environments.

Also, I do not use the BR Sprot for shooting wildlife, where I may be hiking through woods, climbing hills, walking on slippery surfaces, etc. This is where the Lowepro TopLoader and/or Lowepro Magnum shoulder bag come into play again.

I think Lowepro makes some of the best gear bags. Almost all of them have heavy duty padding and rain covers. The Magnum series shoulder bags standup when you set them down, because they have a stiff plastic bottom with feet on them. You can set it down on a damp surface without worry.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

TCampbell — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 05:16:54 GMT

Every time someone tells me their camera is too heavy ... I ask about their support system.

The Canon factory straps look nice, but they're not great for heavy cameras, heavy lenses, and all-day use.

I used to complain about the comfort. Then I got a Black-Rapid 'sing" strap. I can wear a heavy camera and a *really* heavy camera body all day and not complain.

My suggestion is to skip the questions about camera bodies and lenses... "low" focal ratio lenses are only "low" focal ratios because the lens has a massive physical diameter. Massive physical diameters means each optical element in the image-train weighs quite a lot. (Get over it... these are laws of physics. No amount of innovation is going to get around them.)

So it turns out if you want better photos, you want heavy equipment -- not lighter equipment. This shifts the priorities... what you really want is a way to have "heavy "equipment that isn't painfully uncomfortable. To that end.. get a better camera strap.

I really like 'sling' style straps. I use Black-Rapid brand straps ... but there are other vendors who make "sling" style straps. They move the weight from your neck to your your shoulders.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

Tronhard — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 06:49:09 GMT

@TCampbell wrote:
Every time someone tells me their camera is too heavy ... I ask about their support system.

The Canon factory straps look nice, but they're not great for heavy cameras, heavy lenses, and all-day use.

I used to complain about the comfort. Then I got a Black-Rapid 'sing" strap. I can wear a heavy camera and a *really* heavy camera body all day and not complain.

My suggestion is to skip the questions about camera bodies and lenses... "low" focal ratio lenses are only "low" focal ratios because the lens has a massive physical diameter. Massive physical diameters means each optical element in the image-train weighs quite a lot. (Get over it... these are laws of physics. No amount of innovation is going to get around them.)

So it turns out if you want better photos, you want heavy equipment -- not lighter equipment. This shifts the priorities... what you really want is a way to have "heavy "equipment that isn't painfully uncomfortable. To that end.. get a better camera strap.

I really like 'sling' style straps. I use Black-Rapid brand straps ... but there are other vendors who make "sling" style straps. They move the weight from your neck to your your shoulders.

Tim, wIth all due respect, the OP stated that he has a double harness already, that is not a standard OEM item and his back hurts. I am not a physiotherpist but I have studied under one and a Kinesiologist who were with a national Olympic team. If it was just a matter of the camera strap I would expect his shoulders would hurt, but greater stress from weight would definitely cause more stress on the back. So, working under the assumption that the dual harness is of preofessional quality, something like a Black Rapid, I would say that, correctly adjusted, it should be able to spread the weight well over the shoulders, but there is no relief for the spine and back muscles if they are struggling over weight.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

wq9nsc — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:52:52 GMT

I use a Sun Sniper double harness with 1DX and 1DX 2 bodies, typically a 200 F2 or 300 F2.8 on the 1DX 2 and a 70-200 F2.8 on the 1DX. The harness does a decent job once properly adjusted BUT it is still putting all of the weight constantly on your upper body via your shoulders.

Over summer I am seriously tempted to look into re-purposing an old pack frame to work with this harness because unlike camera harness providers, pack makers LONG ago perfected transferring the weight from the shoulders to the hip area. I have yet to find a photo harness built to do this but I would really appreciate it if someone is aware of one. I have hiked for 14 hour days with packs MUCH heavier than these 1 series Canons and fast telephoto lenses in complete comfort.

I have seen one waist holster type system that would probably work for some people and it puts the weight on their hips using a "gun belt" style system. It would be fine for a lot of people but not sports shooters because it does take some effort to guide the camera support shoe into its mating holder preventing really fast camera changes on the fly AND the system has no stock provision for a safety backup strap so if you miss the holder your camera is going to hit the ground.

There are a lot of nice looking and expensive harnesses out there but the design is stuck back in the 1800s.

Rodger

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

Tronhard — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 18:04:41 GMT

Think Tank has a system based on a very robust belt to which one attaches holsters and other devices for attachment. The belt takes the weight of the system, but the shoulder straps help stabilize the system. It has worked fine for me and I have used 5D systems with heavy L metal telephotos without issue. I personally do not have the cameras secured with any straps, so they would fall if I dropped them, something (tough wood) that I have not done in almost 40 years.

If you really need to have the security of a tether for your cameras on top of the holsters, then you could use the Black Rapid Double Breathe system that has adjustable tethers so thaty you can dock you cameras, but if they fall any further then the straps will secure them.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

wq9nsc — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:03:58 GMT

Tronhard,

Thanks and that looks like their holster series could work because it doesn't rely upon aligning a plate with its mate on the belt. I will take a very close look at it when I have time next week. I really appreciate the info because my google search in the past didn't bring up that possibility.

Rodger

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

Waddizzle — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 21:20:22 GMT

@wq9nsc wrote:
Tronhard,

Thanks and that looks like their holster series could work because it doesn't rely upon aligning a plate with its mate on the belt. I will take a very close look at it when I have time next week. I really appreciate the info because my google search in the past didn't bring up that possibility.

Rodger

For hikes in the woods and weedsI have used the Black Rapid Sport with a tripod strap that I had laying around to keep the camera from swinging around...until I bought a Lowepro Top Loader Holster. The Lowepro comes with a waist strap.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

wq9nsc — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 01:28:57 GMT

Wadizzle,

Lowepro makes some nice stuff. I have a couple of their midsize AW (all weather) cases with the integrated rain hoods and they have saved my gear from a lot of rain. I often still use one of them along with a Pelican waterproof case for soccer and football. I bought Lowepro's full frame camera backpack close to 15 years ago and it is wonderfully comfortable for carrying cameras for full day hikes in rough terrain.

For sports shooting, speed of handling cameras and camera safety are both prime considerations for me. I think one of the holster systems with back up safety straps is the way to go. The Sun Sniper dual camera harness I own is workable but I would prefer to have the camera weight down low and it is a little awkward, especially for basketball, where there is a need to switch camera orientation fairly often.

Thanks for making me aware of the Lowepro system. I hopefully will make a change to some other holding system prior to soccer season but definitely by the time football rolls around again in the Fall.

Rodger

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

Waddizzle — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 02:59:13 GMT

@wq9nsc wrote:
Wadizzle,

For sports shooting, speed of handling cameras and camera safety are both prime considerations for me. I think one of the holster systems with back up safety straps is the way to go. The Sun Sniper dual camera harness I own is workable but I would prefer to have the camera weight down low and it is a little awkward, especially for basketball, where there is a need to switch camera orientation fairly often.

Thanks for making me aware of the Lowepro system. I hopefully will make a change to some other holding system prior to soccer season but definitely by the time football rolls around again in the Fall.

Rodger

You're Welcome!

As an amateur sports photographer, I am not using any of the Canon Great Whites. I am using the 70-200mm on a full frame body and the 100-400mm on a crop body like a 7D2, which replaced the loud shutter of the 1D4.

Depending upon the venue and sport, I will carry a Lowepro Mangum 200AW, and either a Black Rapid Sport or a monopod. The above photo was taken with an iPhone 5, BTW.

No matter what, I always seem to carry the Lowepro shoulder bag and a photo vest. Not many bags can carry two pro size bodies with 70-200mm f/2.8 lenses attached at the same time, not without being the size of a sideline Gatorade cooler.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

wq9nsc — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:24:38 GMT

My standard setup for football and soccer fits primarily in a Pelican case. I use a 1DX with a 70-200 2.8 and the 1DX 2 usually has a 300 2.8 on it. I have found that the 300 works better than the much heavier 400 2.8 for my preferred handheld shooting and because I am generally following the action instead of a specific player, the 300 is easier to keep things framed. With the 1DX 2, significant cropping is available even at higher ISO given its noise/detail performance and the 1DX 3 will be even better. The results from the 300 plus 1.4X aren't as sharp (or quite as fast at focusing) as the 400 2.8 by itself but I still use that combo some for daytime soccer because of its lesser weight. For basketball and volleyball I use a EF 200 F2 instead of the 300 2.8.

The bodies and lenses fit in the Pelican case along with the matching Canon lens raincoats and a pair of spare batteries (for peace of mind, I have never needed them even shooting three soccer games in a row). The Lowepro bag usually has a couple of additional lens, a rain poncho for me, and recently a 5DS R body.

Looking at the Lowepro lineup, I don't think their pouches are quite big enough. Think Tank does have pouches that will accommodate the 1 series and great white primes. They are somewhat pricey but cheap compared to our backs!

Rodger

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

Waddizzle — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 17:31:16 GMT

Rodger,

Those beasts deserve a Pelican case. I know the big Think Tank can hold a 150-600mm, but I am not so sure about the great white primes. I thought they came with their own travel case, anyway.

Re: Upgrade? Downgrade? Help me choose.

wq9nsc — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:47:44 GMT

Canon includes really nice protective suitcases for the big primes but the wheeled Pelican makes it really easy to transport the gear from the parking lot to the field and a place to stand or sit when needed. The downside is the Pelican case itself is very heavy so if going across terrain its wheels can't handle it is a load.

The Think Tank largest holster is large enough to hold the 300 F2.8 according to their specified measurement but maybe not a 400 F2.8. But I ended up shooting every HS football game with the 300 F2.8 and 70-200 F2.8 combo last year. With soccer I would be more inclined to put the 400 on my tripod because I am not constantly going up and down field in soccer. With football, most of the time I can predict roughly where I need and depend upon cropping when the unexpected happens but with soccer the action goes from end to end very quickly and the 400 becomes more useful but it is much harder to follow action that moves in closer and leaves a big gap between itself and the 70-200.

Canon's 200-400 F4 extender is probably the ultimate soccer lens but the one time I rented it I found it didn't have "the look" of the 300 and 400 primes. I will rent one again sometime this soccer season because maybe the rental one wasn't a great example. AF was fine and required only a very slight camera calibration but it was more different from the prime glass than what I expected and it is a lot of money for a lens.

Rodger