topic Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM) in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

R Series Mirrorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

declan565 — Tue, 10 Jan 2023 14:39:31 GMT

Im a professional Photographer, I shoot nightclubs and bar-type environments.
I want to upgrade to the canon Mirrorless Cameras but when looking at R3's and R6Mkii I learned that they do not work well with Canon Flashes. 600ex rt ii etc. I found out that the flashes do not fire the red AF Assist Beam (the red light from the front of the flash) To help with focusing.

I shoot in very dark environments and need the Autofocus to be on point and quick in pitch black. Never been an issue with my 5dmk iii or 1dxm ii.

But why do the new cameras not support such a basic feature? Is there plans to address this? I would very much like to upgrade all new cameras and lenses soon but I need my mirrorless and flash system to work. Seems like photographers who need this feature have been forgotten about.

Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

deebatman316 — Mon, 09 Jan 2023 22:34:21 GMT

The camera doesn't see the "IR" AF Assist Beam. If you use a Canon speedlite the speedlite should use "Intermittent Flashes"/ pre-fires for AF Assist. Even if the speedlite has a choice between IR and "Intermittent Flashes"/ Pre-fires. All of Canon's speedlites support "Intermittent Flashes"/ pre-fires on the R series bodies. The manual for all of the R series bodies says that the speedlite will fire an Intermittent AF Assist Beam. Meaning "Intermittent Flashes". But this is dependent on ambient lighting. The camera body chooses if the speedlite or the body lamp fires for AF Assist.

Note highlighted area applies to all of Canon's EX or EL speedlites. Some speedlites don't have a Personal/ Custom for AF Assist Beam Projection/ Emission Method. This is from the Speedlite EL-1 manual but the highlighted area applies to all EX or EL speedlites.

-Demetrius

Current Gear: 5D Mark IV, EF 16-35mm F/2.8L III USM, EF 24-70mm F/2.8L II USM, EF 50 F/1.8 STM, EF 85mm F/1.8 USM, EF 70-200mm F/2.8L IS III USM, 430EX III-RT, 470EX-AI & 600EX II-RT

Retired Gear: EOS 40D, Sigma 17-50mm F/2.8 EX DC OS HSM & EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

MikeSowsun — Mon, 09 Jan 2023 15:26:36 GMT

It’s not just Canon. All Mirrorless camera systems have a problem with IR focus assist and there is no way it can be used going forward.

It is because they use the image sensor for focussing, and as with all digital cameras, they must use an IR filter on the image sensor. SLR cameras, both film and digital, do not have this handicap. The phase detection AF sensor can see IR light focus assist emitted by the flash.

Since Mirrorless cameras can’t use the IR focus assist, it is automatically disabled on ALL Mirrorless cameras. Various manufacturers are using different methods to deal with this handicap. Canon has added annoying AF assist lights to their Mirrorless bodies, and they can also use the flash to emit even more annoying pulses of light (intermittent flash firing). Some flash units will have an LED assist light. When it comes to Nightclub photograph, all are poor substitutes for the good old IR focus assist.

Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

deebatman316 — Mon, 09 Jan 2023 22:14:47 GMT

Apparently the "IR" AF Assist Beam isn't actually IR. It's visible red light. Most mirrorless cameras cannot detect red light very well. This is what Canon support said. But Intermittent Flashes from the speedlite should still work depending on ambient lighting.

@MikeSowsun there are 3rd party manufacturers that make AF Assist Lights/ Beams that are red. They ARE compatible with mirrorless cameras. But when it comes to the R series the camera body chooses if an LED equipped speedlite such as the 320EX will fire its beam. Or if the body lamp will fire for AF Assist. So you can't force an LED equipped speedlite to fire its beam every time for AF Assist. The camera menu also must be set to LED AF Assist Only. Or else the 320EX will fire an Intermittent AF Assist Beam. Just like the 320EX would do on a DSLR camera.

You also cannot force a speedlite with an old IR AF Assist to fire an Intermittent AF Assist Beam. Every time the camera decides AF Assist is needed. The camera body decides if there is too little light or contrast before the speedlite fires an Intermittent AF Assist Beam.

-Demetrius

Current Gear: 5D Mark IV, EF 16-35mm F/2.8L III USM, EF 24-70mm F/2.8L II USM, EF 50 F/1.8 STM, EF 85mm F/1.8 USM, EF 70-200mm F/2.8L IS III USM, 430EX III-RT, 470EX-AI & 600EX II-RT

Retired Gear: EOS 40D, Sigma 17-50mm F/2.8 EX DC OS HSM & EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM

Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

luka3rd — Sun, 12 Nov 2023 00:43:56 GMT

So, is there any other flash that would behave like the small 320EX? It cannot be the only one... Or it might?

Thank you for all the details.

Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

deebatman316 — Sun, 12 Nov 2023 01:07:10 GMT

The speedlite EL-5 also has an LED AF Assist Beam. But this speedlite uses a new multi function hot shoe so it can ONLY be used on certain cameras (not compatible with the R, RP, R5, R6 & R100 cameras, EOS M series or SLR/ DSLR cameras). The EL-5 also supports automatic brightness adjustment of the LED AF Assist Beam when paired with a compatible camera. When a compatible camera is used. The camera can adjust the brightness of the LED AF Assist depending on the ambient lighting. The R3, R7 & R10 DO NOT support this feature. The speedlite will project the LED AF Assist Beam AT FULL brightness ONLY regardless of the ambient lighting. If lighting is too low the speedlite will switch to Intermittent Flash Firing when used with the R3, R7 & R10 cameras. BUT NOTE depending on the ambient lighting an LED AF Assist Beam may be projected BY THE CAMERA instead of the speedlite depending on the ambient lighting. Note this is for ALL cameras with the new multi function hot shoe. Note even cameras that support Automatic brightness adjustment of the LED AF Assist Beam. Can fall back to Intermittent Flash Firing if the speedlite overheats. Or will decrease brightness of the LED AF Assist Beam. But an LED AF Assist Beam can be projected by the camera instead of the speedlite.

Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

luka3rd — Sun, 12 Nov 2023 06:26:42 GMT

EL-5 is fundamentally flawed, like EL-1 but unlike 320EX (!), in the regard of LED position.

Instead of LEDs being on the front of the flash body, where AF assist beam LEDs have always been, they are at the tip of the head, making them completely unusable, for me and I guess many professionals, as I never fire the flash directly at the subject...

I am astounded by such a flawed concept, it's very strange to realise that some small flash from the past is more usable today than top of the line "compatible" model.

Again, thank you for the details. I have R6 II.

Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

deebatman316 — Sun, 12 Nov 2023 13:49:01 GMT

The EL-1 DOES NOT have an LED AF Assist Beam. It has an LED modeling light though. The EL-1 uses Intermittent Flash Firing for AF Assist on R series cameras. Even with the speedlite in the bounce position. The LED AF Assist Beam will still bounce off a wall or ceiling. Just like a regular flash exposure would. Intermittent Flash Firing works the same way in the bounce position too. If it didn't bounce flash photography wouldn't work then. The way how Intermittent Flash Firing works is. The camera rapidly varies the voltage going to the speedlite. To control the brightness of the AF Assist pre-fire. All of Canon's speedlites support it on R series cameras. The camera can also override speedlites that have an option of IR and Intermittent Flash Firing. Even if the speedlite is set to IR. All this AF Assist Beam setting does is. If the speedlite has a color filter or flash diffuser attached. The camera body emits an LED AF Assist Beam instead of the speedlite. Since Intermittent Flash Firing is DISABLED when a color filter or flash diffuser is used. Since the flash guide number is reduced.

Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

luka3rd — Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:38:08 GMT

Here is the crop of your image, with blue color over the text I want to point out.

It says that LED AF beam WILL be fired when head is at 0° position.

Am I not understanding it right? Thanks.

Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

deebatman316 — Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:48:13 GMT

Some people have reported that the LED AF Assist Beam has fired when not at 0 position. Now Intermittent Flash Firing works the same way too. My older EX speedlites will use Intermittent Flash Firing regardless if its direct or in bounce mode. I have used the EL-5 in direct flash with the R6 Mark II and the camera varied the LED AF Assist Beam brightness. It did switch to Intermittent Flash Firing when it overheated. I also tested it out on the R7 and the LED AF Assist was at Full Output ONLY. But once it got too dark it switched to Intermittent Flash Firing. There IS NO Custom or Personal Function to switch between LED & Intermittent Flash Firing for AF Assist. The camera chooses what type of beam will be emitted from the speedlite or the camera will emit the beam.

Re: R Series Mirorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

luka3rd — Sun, 12 Nov 2023 20:49:56 GMT

Thank you so much for your explanation and time. Very helpful!

Re: R Series Mirrorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

luka3rd — Wed, 06 Dec 2023 14:37:23 GMT

I just like to leave an example of the solution for photographing in the similar venues as night clubs.

My need is similar, as I shoot fashion shows, and together with that goes backstage which is usually completely in darkness so I need AF assist! I bought GODOX v860III flash! Oh boy, it is so perfect!!!

I just turn on the modeling light, which also has "flash attenuation function" which dims the LED in the moment of exposition! Led is positioned on the front of the body, which IS the correct way, which helps me focusing in the complete darkness!

Added bonus: model's eyes' pupils contract from the light, so I even got some of the iris colour!!! Phenomenal solution, I'm so happy with the choice!

Re: R Series Mirrorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

deebatman316 — Thu, 07 Dec 2023 00:40:17 GMT

Just because a speedlite has an LED AF Assist Beam. Doesn't mean the camera will use the speedlite's AF Assist Beam. Sometimes the camera body will emit the beam. There is no way around this the camera chooses this. Also most Godox speedlites have incompatibilities with EOS R series cameras. One of them is HSS + E-TTL don't work together. Also Godox speedlites fail when the AF Assist Beam is signaled from the camera. Versions with the old school red grid pattern (IR/ Infrared not really IR) fail to switch Intermittent Flash Firing. Which causes the camera to emit an LED AF Assist Beam instead. The camera will go crazy switching back and forth between the speedlite and camera for AF Assist. The camera is expecting Intermittent Flash Firing from the speedlite but the Godox can't/ doesn't support it. The speedlite doesn't understand the modified AF Assist Beam signal from the camera. Thus causing the speedlite to emit an IR AF Assist Beam. Which the camera can't see because it doesn't detect red light very well at all like a DSLR/ SLR camera's AF sensor can.

Re: R Series Mirrorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

luka3rd — Thu, 07 Dec 2023 09:21:47 GMT

Cool! I don't use hss... Never did. The rest, I couldn't care less.

I wrote what it does, and it does it right!

I love the option to have a small tiny light, and I'd hate my flash firing strobes... I've never used modeling flash option of old, never, not even once.

What I'd hate more than stroboscopic burst would be my camera firing disgusting orange LED...

It's preposterous to me that no manufacturer STILL didn't make green light AF beam, like old "prosumer" Sony cameras had. But I guess they will sometime...

Being as it is, to me this V860III fits perfectly, I keep AF beam option at "off" in the camera, as well as in the flash. I turn on LED when I enter pitch black backstage (it's very tactile - I do it without looking at it), no one cares, everyone even welcomes it. It's not distracting to anyone at level 1, but it's plenty for R6II to focus perfectly.

It's also much more natural to people today to shine on them one white LED, as they're used to mobile phones, than to be strobed - like electrocuted 😄

Anyway, my 2 cents of working experience.

Re: R Series Mirrorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

deebatman316 — Thu, 07 Dec 2023 22:35:51 GMT

Nikon uses a Green AF Illuminator on their camera bodies. There not even using Intermittent Flash Firing on their speedlites nor does Sony. The only thing about 3rd Party items is will it work with my next camera. Also Canon uses automatic brightness adjustment of the LED AF Assist Beam on the EL-5 when paired with a compatible camera. Which would be every new camera with a multi function hot shoe. Except for the R3, R7 & R10 then only allow full brightness for LED AF Assist or switch to Intermittent Flash Firing. Intermittent Flash Firing was first introduced in 2009 with the original 270EX speedlite. But ONLY cameras released from 2007 onwards support it. This is due to additional hardware needed in the camera to support it. In 2007 Canon released the speedlite control menu and 2 new speedlites which supported it. Those were the 430EX II & 580EX II all other older speedlite were incompatible with it. Certain speedlites have partial compatibility to set rear curtain sync, FEC, FEB, AF Assist Beam Firing & Flash Firing.

Re: R Series Mirrorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

phrank — Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:34:33 GMT

Hi, sorry I’m from Nikon, but would switch if Canon would have what I need – a working AF-Assist light feature for mirrorless cams. I’ve bought a Nikon Z 8 early this summer. Well, and I was surprised no AF-assist light is working at my flashes, none from Nikon, Yognuo or Godox. I was warned by Nikon Professional Service, but couldn’t believe it. Mirrorless cameras are just blind at red light. Okay I have this annoying little green LED flashlight, known from semi pro cameras, but these sucks at night life.

So, more than 10 years after (i got my first mirrorless hybrid camera from Panasonic GH-1 in 2010), there is no solution from any of the big camera companies yet? I’ve contacted Yognuo and Godox as well – nothing… Nikon is aware of it, after complains from the Pros with a Z 9, but I don’t know when they release a solution. I only know about a DIY project with a little focus LED, but it’s probably same like Godox’s modeling light.

Re: R Series Mirrorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

deebatman316 — Thu, 28 Dec 2023 15:41:14 GMT

No because the red grid pattern aligned with the AF sensors in an SLR/ DSLR camera. Intermittent Flash Firing doesn't have this restriction.

Re: R Series Mirrorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

phrank — Thu, 28 Dec 2023 16:17:13 GMT

Thanks for the reply. I know, I’m not a photo technician, but I wonder if they could use a green or blue AF-assist light pattern instead. I think this Intermittent flash is only a work around which I never used either with a DSLR before.

Re: R Series Mirrorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

deebatman316 — Thu, 28 Dec 2023 16:21:43 GMT

Some of Canon's speedlites only support Intermittent Flash Firing even on a DSLR. Nikon does use a Green AF Assist Beam. Canon uses an Orange AF Assist Beam.

Re: R Series Mirrorless and Flash Photography (AF ASSIST BEAM)

phrank — Thu, 28 Dec 2023 16:45:51 GMT

Just found this quote on dpreview.com "If mirrorless cameras are going to displace DSLRs for wedding and event photography, manufacturers need to find a way". WORD – the post is from 2018 – nothing improved?

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0349022850/the-essential-pro-feature-that-no-mirrorless-camera-offers