topic Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography? in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

RonL52 — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 15:42:29 GMT

Hi, I am considering upgrading from my Canon 60d to a full frame (6d), I generally shoot horses in action and head profiles using a Canon 70-200L non IS lens. I would be interested in feedback as to whether the cost would benefit me with this type of photography. Also any additional lens suggestions would be appreciated.

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

ScottyP — Wed, 26 Mar 2014 22:53:59 GMT

If it really is just horse action shots, then no. 6d does not have a better autofocus for motion than your 60d has.

The FF 6d is better in low light. Are any of these horses shot in dim light or indoors? Unless there is a lot of that, I really don't see the benefit in upgrading, and you would also need to replace any EF-s or 3rd party crop-only lenses to go full frame

You would do better to spend money on lens acquisitions or upgrades.

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

ebiggs1 — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 12:23:07 GMT

"You would do better to spend money on lens acquisitions ..."

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

TCampbell — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 13:25:11 GMT

I think the more important question is to ask what is it about your horse photography that leaves you wanting more?

I have read comments from horse photographers who talk about the challenge of shooting at indoor events where lighting is poor.

In this cases a low focal ratio lens (e.g. an f/2.8 zoom... or even some primes (50mm, 85mm, or 135mm primes are available in very low focal ratios but which one is right for you depends on how far away you are and how you need to frame the shots.)

You can calculate the focal length of the lens if you know a few things about your shooting situation. E.g. suppose you know you'll be about 50' away when shooting and the height of your horse+rider is about 8' (I'm making this up). You want a horizontal framing and you want to pad the framing just a bit (e.g. you want to frame for about 11' so you can have a bit of space above and below, etc.

Then you can use a dimensional field of view calculator. Here's a link (I really like the photography "calculators" on this site):

‎www.tawbaware.com/maxlyons/calc.htm

You can scroll down to the "dimensional field of view" calculator and punch in your anticipated shooting distance (e.g. 50') and with the 60D (all Canon EOS cameras that have an "APS-C" size imaging sensor have the same crop factor) you enter 1.6 as the crop factor.

Now you can plug in the lens you want to test and click the "Compute" button. E.g. try a 50mm lens and it tells you the vertical height in your frame is just above 15'... leaving a generous framing (and you can always crop in later). If you try 85mm, it tells you that your vertical dimension is just slightly less than 9' heigh. That might be just a bit too tight (unless you back away from the subject.)

And you can always rent a few lenses to find the lens that fits your shooting needs best... then buy the lens(es) that worked best for your type of photography.

With a full frame camera, you'll gain a bit in the ability to shoot at high ISO while keeping the noise level low -- but that's just one of many factors to consider and if you're shooting action, then you may not want to make sure that whatever camera you consider has at least as good of a focus system and continuous shooting speed as your current camera or it'll be a downgrade in that respect.

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

amfoto1 — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 17:33:10 GMT

I do a ton of equestrian photography.

I use a pair of 7D's for the vast majority of it (90% or more). Those have essentially the same sensor and high ISO capability as your 60D, just a slightly more sophisticated (but no more sensitive) auto focus system and higher frame rate. I do also have a 5D Mark II that's proven useful at times in lower light situations, but I use it far less than the crop cameras. The 5DII can do about one stop higher ISO than 7D (a 6D offers slightly higher ISO than 5DII, as well as extra low light focusing capability).

Primarily, I'd rather have the "extra reach" of crop cameras than the high ISO capabilities of full frame. My most used lenses are 70-200/2.8 IS, 70-200/4 IS, 300/2.8 IS and 300/4 IS. I also carry and sometimes use 28-135 IS, 10-22mm, 24-70/2.8 and a number of shorter primes (portrait, macro, tilt-shift).

In order to have the "reach" of a 300mm lens on crop camera, with a full frame camera I'd have to lug around a 500mm. No thanks!

But in general it's more down to lenses than the camera they are used upon...

What lenses and cameras I use depends on the type of event I'm shooting, whether or not I can be or want to be mobile, whether or not an arena is covered, if I'm not working outdoors.

For dressage, I often have to work in covered arenas. But I am not mobile at dressage events, so I can set up a 300/2.8 on a tripod to reach the other end of the arena and use a 70-200/2.8 for closer shots. I prefer to to stop down a bit for adequate depth of field when I can, but like to have f2.8 available if needed to get shots in darker areas of the arena. Generally speaking, unless at a very high level, dressage cannot and should not be photographed with flash. Most junior and amateur dressage riders and horses are not accustomed to flash. Dressage is slower moving than some other events, so I can get by with a slower shutter speed in many cases... 1/250 and 1/320 is sometimes possible.

Hunter/jumper, stock competition, gymkhana and English/Western are types of events where I need to be more mobile and tend to use 300/4 IS and 70-200/4 IS for mostly handheld shooting. These types of events are sometimes in covered arenas, but often are in open, uncovered venues. Even if the arena is covered, it's quite likely to be well lit. It is possible to use fill flash judiciously, but I try to avoid it as much as possible, and never use it too close.

Hunter/jumper, arena jumping, gymkhana and all sorts of stock competition tend to be moving, so I need to use 1/640 or faster shutter speeds, if I want to freeze the action.

For trail trials I try to carry minimal gear because I'm walking the trail with the horses and riders (not the entire 6 to 10 miles of most TT courses), but it's entirely outdoors in good light. I mostly use 28-135 on one camera and 300/4 IS on another. I have had trouble with the noise of 5DII in the quieter settings of trail trials, but not with 7D or even using 5DII in noiser arenas (I know the 6D and 5DIII have "quiet" modes, but haven't used them, so can't be certain how effective they are or if there are other issues using them.)

Cross country is one type of event where I always struggle to figure out what to carry. If I working close to home or have a ride out onto the course, I might take larger lenses and tripods. But if I'm hiking, I'll opt for the lighter stuff.

I sometimes use the full frame 5DII for planned, stationary portraits (after testing to see if the horse reacts to the shutter noise). I also will occasionally use it in particularly dark venues. But generally even those I can find brighter spots and work those with my 7D's instead. So I might only be limited from shooting in particular portions of the arena.

If I could only carry one, it would probably be a crop sensor camera... on a budget 60D or 70D, 7Ds have been working well for me for over 4 years and upwards of 100,000 clicks apiece, and probably will get replaced with 7D Mark II's when those come available. (In the past I extensively used 50D, 30D and 10D, too.) A crop camera gives the most versatility and flexibility, IMO. It offers the "extra reach" that allows smaller, ligher, less expensive lenses to serve, plus all lenses both EF and EF-S can be used (a full frame camera is slightly limited, to EF only).

But, sure, 6D's low light capabilities could be nice at times. It's probably a good two stops higher ISO capable than your 60D or my 7Ds... and it's AF is able to focus in about two stops lower light, too (-3EV, compared to -1EV). Note that the 6D would be limited largely to center AF point only, for any AI Servo/action shooting and low light. (That woudl be fine by me... smae is true of my 5DII and even with 7Ds and 50Ds, which have much more capable peripheral AF points, I still only use the center one most of the time.)

Hope this helps!

***********
Alan Myers

San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7D(x2), 50D(x3), some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & PRINTROOM

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

RonL52 — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:41:34 GMT

Scott,

Thanks for the information, it sounds as though I would be better off investing in additional lenses.

Ron

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

RonL52 — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:43:56 GMT

Hi,

Thanks for the reply, I may start considering additional lenses.

Ron

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

RonL52 — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 18:53:49 GMT

Tim,

Thanks for the information you provided, this will be extremely helpful finding the right additional lense I should purchase. I believe what is lacking is my ability to take good portrait shots with the canon 70-200, with the crop value added to the lens focal lens. I will do some calculations regarding my distance from subject as you suggested.

Ron

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

RonL52 — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 19:06:06 GMT

Alan,

Thanks for all the valuable information, It sounds as though you are much more advanced than myself. I am retired and enjoy photgraphing the horses at the University of Conn. which is nearby. I think your right that I would miss the crop factor of the 60d for distance shots. I may look at adding a f2.8 prime lens for my portrait shots at some point, also the 24-70 2.8 sounds interesting.

Ron

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

ebiggs1 — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 19:11:48 GMT

The Sigma 50-150mm F2.8 APO EX DC OS (Canon EF) is a great alternative to the outstanding Canon 70-200mm f2.8. It has the nice feature of providing the same "view" on a crop body as the 70-200mm does on a full frame. It seems that this has become, and is, a very popular focal length.

Canon does not offer a 50-150mm for APS-C bodies and this lens is a fantastic buy.

I use this lens on my 7D for portraits and I know you will love it on yours.

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

RonL52 — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 19:20:47 GMT

This may be a good alternative, I feel that I am getting more focal range that I need most of the time with the 70-200 f4 lens. I also like that it would be an f2.8, I will look into this.

Thanks, Ron

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

amfoto1 — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 21:10:43 GMT

The biggest problem with the Sigma 50-150/2.8 is that it's almost exactly the same size and weight as a 70-200/2.8 lens. If size and weight are a primary consideration, might as well get (or keep) the 70-200! OTOH, the 50-150 OS is a good value... less than half the price of the Canon EF 70-200/2.8 IS Mark II.

If your main concern is portraiture work, a 24-70/2.8 works particularly well on a crop sensor camera for that purpose. In fact, for portraits I like it better on a crop camera than I do on full frame. OTOH, my favorite portrait lenses are all primes with even larger than f2.8 aperture. Bigger apertures are better able to heavily blur less than ideal backgrounds that often are something to deal with, particularly with candid portraits and portraits on the run where you can't control the background. I use 28/1.8, 50/1.4, 85/1.8 a lot for portraiture with crop cameras, sometimes 135/2, though I probably tend to use it more on full frame.

***********
Alan Myers

San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7D(x2), 50D(x3), some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & PRINTROOM

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

RonL52 — Thu, 27 Mar 2014 22:22:01 GMT

Alan,

I have been doing a bit of investigating today and the Tamron 24-70 f2.8 seems to be rated well and would be affordabe. I am no ruling out the prime lenses you mentioned, although I would need to keep the price around $1000. I really appreciate you taking the time to provide me with feedback.

Thanks, Ron

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

ebiggs1 — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 13:42:56 GMT

Light weight, zoom and f2.8 probably ain't goon happen with todays technology.

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

mgiese — Tue, 03 Jun 2014 01:44:28 GMT

Personally, I would not use the 6D. I currently use the 7D and have been having a great success with this camera. I will be upgrading to the 5D mark III in the next two months. The 6D does not have the shutter speed needed for a high percentage of keepers. I have use my 7D with the 70-200 2.8. Pictures are incredible. A have used the 7D all the way to 3000 ASA without issues. I looked at the 6D because I wanted to save money, but I decided against it. Buy a refurbished 5D mark III from Canon. Just as good a a new one out of the box. Please feel free to see my pics at mikaelpgiesephotography.zenfolio.com. Good luck with your decision.

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

RonL52 — Tue, 03 Jun 2014 11:46:06 GMT

Thanks I appreciate the feedback, I have been satisfied with my 60d and a 70-200 L lense for my horse photography. I may upgrade to a full frame at some point in the future.

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

ebiggs1 — Tue, 03 Jun 2014 13:22:43 GMT

"The 6D does not have the shutter speed needed for a high percentage of keepers."

WOW, you use 1/8000 over 1/4000 to make this a critical buying point? With all the other sigmificant differences?

Just curious!

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

TCampbell — Tue, 03 Jun 2014 14:52:15 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"The 6D does not have the shutter speed needed for a high percentage of keepers."

WOW, you use 1/8000 over 1/4000 to make this a critical buying point? With all the other sigmificant differences?
Just curious!

Perhaps he was referring to the frame rate (FPS) when using the continuous shooting mode (aka "burst") -- not actually the shutter speed of an individual frame.

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

Skirball — Tue, 03 Jun 2014 15:33:17 GMT

@TCampbell wrote:
@ebiggs1 wrote:
"The 6D does not have the shutter speed needed for a high percentage of keepers."

WOW, you use 1/8000 over 1/4000 to make this a critical buying point? With all the other sigmificant differences?
Just curious!
Perhaps he was referring to the frame rate (FPS) when using the continuous shooting mode (aka "burst") -- not actually the shutter speed of an individual frame.

Perhaps. But in the middle of a post comparing the 7D to 6D he actually seems to imply that the 7D has supperior high ISO performance. Or at least that 3000 ISO is impressive in this day and age. I'm guessing he's never actually used the 6D, and doesn't know much about it outside of the internet banter.

Edit: looks like the OP already made his purchase anyway.

Re: Any advantages from trading up to a Canon 6d full frame from a 60d for horse photography?

RonL52 — Sun, 08 Jun 2014 19:30:51 GMT

Well after much deliberation I recently purchased the Canon 6d camera, the Mark 3 was out of my range. I was a little nervous about the 4.5 fps, but after checking the specs on the Mark 2 which is 3.9 fps I felt more assured that this would meet my needs. I was right, I am blown away by the picture quality of this full frame and have allready shot some horses in action. The 4.5 fps is plenty fast enough, I was able to get some good quality picures using my 70-200L f4 canon lens.

I want to thank everyone who replied to my original question. The decision was obviously mine, but the feedback was needed to get there.

Thanks, Ron