topic Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

rascher — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 17:46:38 GMT

I googled it, found that a lot of people are getting bad, blurry images from an anomaly in the eye focus mode. A focus pulsing occurs when keeping tracking active in the animal's eye.

The video below, from 10:00 on onwards shows exactly this problem.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lmjC07v8yI&t=471s

In the Canon R6 manual it says that (ALL) EF lenses work with the use of the EF-EOS-R adapter. But nowhere in the manual does it report incompatibilities or focus issues related to the smart focus mode (eye focus).

drive.google.com/file/d/1RFP_2LmEDNksaPlnz7IiWuZjmFId8y2q/view?usp=sharing

Link with images of a 100% static animal and still the focus shows (pulsing)

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

Tronhard — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 18:05:56 GMT

Hi and welcome to the forum:

I have both the Sigma 150-600c and 60-600s lenses and have tested them fairly rigorously against the EOS R5 and R6. There are two observations that need to be considered with your impression. I have already looked at the video you refer to and your impression is being slightly misled. Duade observed that the pulsing occurs ONLY at minimum focusing distance on the 150-600c. I also have engaged with Duade on his observations to confirm this - that engagement is in the top of the responses area, but to quote it here:
Me: Well, I was shooting with the R5 and R6 and didn't notice the pulsing you were referring to with either lens, however I was shooting at some distance and that brought me to confirm with you something that I had wondered. You didn't SEEM to get significant pulsing at distance, but certainly it had an impact closer to your minimum focusing distance. Is that your experience?

Duade: Yes, that is my experience and maybe that why the motorbikes were much better, not sure why that might be. Cheers, Duade"
So, to summarize. Duade had that issue, but only at minimum focusing distance and still got a decent percentage of keepers. I: using the R5 and R6, did not have an issue. One difference was that he was using the lens with a tripod and possibly did not turn off the OS on the Sigma lens. I was shooting hand-held. In that case the issue might be that the OS has to be disabled when on a tripod when using the eye tracking or with Canon IBIS stabilization. I personally did not have any issue with the 150-600c or with the 60-600s units.

My second observation is with your interpretation of the statement by Canon on the use of EF and EF-S lenses with R-series bodies. Canon do NOT make any promises about the behaviour of 3rd party lenses on their R-series bodies for the excellent reason that they have no control over the design and build of these units. Their statements about compatibility apply only to Canon native lenses, which is reasonable.

As Duade himself stated, Sigma announced that their lenses for the EF mount were not designed for the RF systems. They will, in due course produce RF mount systems, but in the meantime I think you can use the lenses with some degree of confidence

I recently posted some shots taken while testing the Sigma lenses and you can find that post HERE

I hope this will put your concerns into context.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

rascher — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 18:06:13 GMT

Did you see the attached images? The images speak for themselves! I used a Canon EF 70-200 f2.8 L USM lens. Duade also reported that this PULSING also happens with the RF 100-500mm.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

Tronhard — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 18:36:39 GMT

Hi Rodrigo:

I just had a look at your images - sorry I initially missed the link (it's 5am her in NZ and I need coffee)! I have downloaded your images.

I have not seen or read that Duade states that he had that experience with the RF100-500 on the R5 or R6. In the video you referred to, Duade was using the R7, which HAS had focusing issues with both EF and RF lenses - but that is using a slightly different tracking system adapted from the R3 and it uses a crop sensor, so the lens is effectively working outside it's designed parameters.

I respect your experience, but again, I will reiterate that my results differ. Certainly, I did not get 100% keepers, but considering I was shooting birds in flight at speed and I doing so hand-held, one cannot expect that - between those two variables there will be images that don't come out sharp.

So, to try to find out the context of your experience. Given you are using the R6 and not the R7, my questions relate to your setup.
Were you using the camera hand-held, or on a tripod?
What were the status of your IBIS and eye tracking?
What firmware is your camera using?

Let's see if we can get to the bottom of your issues.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

jrhoffman75 — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 18:56:57 GMT

Perhaps I am missing something, but the images in the ZIP file are not people with eyes. They are not even the kinds of animals that the camera manual discusses (cats, dogs, birds) and they are not vehicles.

Did you have "None" selected in the AF option menu?

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

rascher — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 19:00:38 GMT

Hi Tronhard,

Were you using the camera hand-held, or on a tripod?

- I tested it with a tripod + trigger and also without a tripod. Same result.

What were the status of your IBIS and eye tracking?

IBIS disabled in tripod tests.

What firmware is your camera using?

Firmware 1.6.0

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

rascher — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 19:04:15 GMT

Hello John,

I selected Animals mode. Animals are animals in general. The camera identifies the eyes of ANY animal, even a dragonfly

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

Tronhard — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 19:18:14 GMT

First, thank you for answering my questions so promptly - it is helpful to have as much data as possible.

Actually, John has a good point about the kind of subject you are shooting, compared to what the tracking is designed for. The system first looks for faces and bodies and then seeks the eye for the types of animals specified. Looking at your images of an insect, there is no obvious face and the location of the eye, which is protruding from the head into clear space, is unusual for an animal - eyes are usually in the middle of a head which is why the algorithm looks for the face first and then zeroes in on the eye - combined with the camouflage pattern of the rest of the animal could be an issue. These algorithms are not universally fool proof.
Is this the only subject on which you have tested the issue? To get consistent results, I would recommend shooting other animals and see how the results turn out.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

jrhoffman75 — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 19:19:24 GMT

@rascher wrote:
Hello John,

I selected Animals mode. Animals are animals in general. The camera identifies the eyes of ANY animal, even a dragonfly

Being as that is not what the camera manual or technical specifications state I guess I would ask you for your source for your conclusion.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

Tronhard — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 19:26:48 GMT

Actually your use of the term in general is slightly misleading. Canon clearly states the range of animals its eye tracking is designed for and that does not include insects. As mentioned in the manual, the system follows a process: it first identifies the body, then the face and then the eye. If the shape of the face and location of the eye are not within the parameters of the algorithm then it doesn't lock on the eye.

Again, I would recommend trying the eye tracking on other animal subjects to see if you have the same issue.

If you specialize in shooting insects, then you can always recommend to Canon that insect eye identification would be a feature you would like to see added. They will take that on board.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

rascher — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 20:22:08 GMT

Hello Trevor,

I photographed other animals, birds and lizards. I get every 20 images 4 or 5 sharp. With my old 5D mk3 I would never have such bad results…. In the images that I made available, the algorithm perfectly found the eyes of that animal, it's its own eyes, it's impressive, but the focus doesn't stay…… in the images in which the eyes were focused, the animal's body was not sharp! using f10 aperture!!! How is this explained? this insect's entire body should be in focus, it's a small insect!!! The depth of field is totally unrealistic!!

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

Tronhard — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 20:26:48 GMT

If it is that bad then I would suggest the camera is not working to spec. I have one R5 and two R6 units and have used all of them with a wide range of Canon EF lenses without issue - see my profile for my gear list.

Without being able to see this in action I cannot offer any more information or context than I already have. I would suggest you contact Canon for support under warranty. You can call 1-800-OK-CANON to do so.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

rascher — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 20:44:33 GMT

Hi Trevor,

If I disable the AI tracking focus mode and use One Shot or Servo the images are perfect !!! the focus stays on the focused point !! I don't think it has a problem with the R6 body. I bought it a few weeks ago. Other people report this problem too, I'm not a unique case.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

Tronhard — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 21:03:02 GMT

My comment about raising this with Canon tech support still stands. If this is an issue with the Canon camera you have of the model then they can best help you. This is a forum of volunteers who try to sort out issues that are not requiring a system change or repair. Unfortunately this forum can't do anything more to assist you - you need to talk to a tech support person.

I would recommend that when doing so you give Canon the full and detailed description of all of the situations under which you experience these issues, including specifics of subject types and settings. This will help them to help you by being able to gauge the range and scope of the situations under which you experience the pulsing.

If you want the best response to your issues, these suggestions are made to make your own experience more positive.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

jrhoffman75 — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 21:21:08 GMT

@rascher wrote:
Hello Trevor,

I photographed other animals, birds and lizards. I get every 20 images 4 or 5 sharp. With my old 5D mk3 I would never have such bad results…. In the images that I made available, the algorithm perfectly found the eyes of that animal, it's its own eyes, it's impressive, but the focus doesn't stay…… in the images in which the eyes were focused, the animal's body was not sharp! using f10 aperture!!! How is this explained? this insect's entire body should be in focus, it's a small insect!!! The depth of field is totally unrealistic!!

Hi Rodrigo.

Here is a screenshot of one of your images. The image data doesn't give the distance from camera to insect.

The insect head is nice and sharp but the body and tree trunk down from the head are soft.

I guess there are two possibilities - 1. f/10 does not produce sufficient DoF at that distance and focal length or 2. some phenomena is going on where during exposure parts of the image fall out of focus. I believe #1 is more likely.

AI Servo tracking is designed to identify and follow subjects as they move through the viewfinder. It does that by sampling the image and determining the location of a subject at points in time and predicting where the subject will be when the shutter actually opens. Your subjects appear stationary; the tree and insect look in the same location in all your images. It is possible that the camera is sensing its slight motion if you are touching the camera when you actuate the shutter and thinking that it is subject motion.

In any event, I would be using One Shot AF with spot focus on the eye bulge if I was taking those images. And I would check a DoF table to ensure that DoF was adequate.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

Waddizzle — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 23:23:39 GMT

@rascher wrote:
Hello John,

I selected Animals mode. Animals are animals in general. The camera identifies the eyes of ANY animal, even a dragonfly

If that were true, then I suspect that you would never created this post.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

Waddizzle — Tue, 06 Sep 2022 23:26:55 GMT

@jrhoffman75 wrote:
@rascher wrote:
Hello Trevor,

I photographed other animals, birds and lizards. I get every 20 images 4 or 5 sharp. With my old 5D mk3 I would never have such bad results…. In the images that I made available, the algorithm perfectly found the eyes of that animal, it's its own eyes, it's impressive, but the focus doesn't stay…… in the images in which the eyes were focused, the animal's body was not sharp! using f10 aperture!!! How is this explained? this insect's entire body should be in focus, it's a small insect!!! The depth of field is totally unrealistic!!
Hi Rodrigo.
Here is a screenshot of one of your images. The image data doesn't give the distance from camera to insect.
The insect head is nice and sharp but the body and tree trunk down from the head are soft.
I guess there are two possibilities - 1. f/10 does not produce sufficient DoF at that distance and focal length or 2. some phenomena is going on where during exposure parts of the image fall out of focus. I believe #1 is more likely.
AI Servo tracking is designed to identify and follow subjects as they move through the viewfinder. It does that by sampling the image and determining the location of a subject at points in time and predicting where the subject will be when the shutter actually opens. Your subjects appear stationary; the tree and insect look in the same location in all your images. It is possible that the camera is sensing its slight motion if you are touching the camera when you actuate the shutter and thinking that it is subject motion.
In any event, I would be using One Shot AF with spot focus on the eye bulge if I was taking those images. And I would check a DoF table to ensure that DoF was adequate.

The camera appears to be angled above the horizon, which would only contribute to creating the impression that the camera is experiencing focusing issues.

In other words, the shallow DoF created by the long focal length and the distance to the subject is only being made to appear even more shallow because of the camera angle to the subject.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

Tronhard — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 02:28:02 GMT

Never let it be said I don't go the extra mile (in this case about 12km) for those with issues. I went to the zoo with one of my Canon EOS R6 units, and the Canon EF 100-400L IS USM MkII, attached via a Canon adapter, I also took along the Canon EOS R5 using the Canon EF 70-200L f/2.8 IS USM, attached via a Canon adapter - a lot of the time shooting in 1.6 crop mode.

I have uploaded all of the JPG images from each into shared folders on my MS Onedrive for your review - they are unedited in any way, and they number run consecutively to show I was not cherry picking results. You will see some images that are massively out of focus as I was waking the camera up from snooze mode, or inadvertently pressed the shutter while handling two cameras, and I don't consider those a failure of the focusing system.

A note on shooting conditions:
I was shooting hand-held in available light - some of which was quite dim, in a mix of outdoors and indoors.
In the case of Lemurs and reptiles also behind glass. In some of those images, the focus was fooled by the reptiles' ears pits just behind their eyes.
The giraffes and zebras were a challenge because they use camouflage to protect themselves so the focus system was occasionally fooled by the colouration patterns
The bearded tamarin I shot was deliberately in the darkness of the tree it was sitting in and the eyes were therefore in deep shadow.
The Howler Monkeys are almost black on black.

By doing so, I deliberately challenged the focusing system, and I did not expect 100% accuracy. Even under these conditions my results seem to be far in excess of the numbers that the OP has quoted.

I encourage anyone viewing this thread to check out the images using Canon DPP software to display the focus points - I don't use Lightroom, so I don't know if that will do the same thing.
I would be interested in your conclusions...

Canon EOS R5 Images and Canon EOS R6 Images
Please respect my copyright by not downloading for other purpose than to examine them in this specific context. After viewing them, please delete any that are on your computer.

If that is agreed then that leaves us with the thought that it is not a systemic issue - if I can get these results so should the OP or anyone else. Thus, that leaves us other alternatives for the situation:
a fault in the camera, in the focusing system (including lenses), or how the camera is configured and used.

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

FloridaDrafter — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 04:28:30 GMT

Trevor, did you notice in the OP's example Raw files that he was using the 200mm L with an EF 2X III extender? I examined all of the OP's Raw shots and thought, with the exception of a couple, they looked acceptable considering they were using an extender.

Personally, I don't get the same results with an EF extender (I just have the EF 1.4X III) on the R5 & 6 that I got on my DSLR's... Not sure why. I used it [extender] on the EF 100-400mm L II with the 7D II, 5D IV, and for a short period with the R5 & 6. I just got better IQ on the DSLR's using the 1.4X.

IMHO, the problem with the OP's provided shots is the 2X extender. As for the insect and to answer John, I've dealt with that species before. They are generally quite large, so f/10 probably wouldn't cover it, particularly at that angle.

Newton

Re: Canon R6 AI Focus (PULSING) - EF Lenses

Tronhard — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 04:39:39 GMT

Thanks Newton. I had not twigged on that. I have had a few health issues and not as observant as I would normally be, so thank you for that information. Absolutely, I think that the addition of the extender would have an impact on quality and your comment about the insect is also indicative.

This has been a developing story. Starting with the first general statement based on a generalization from a video of the R7 using a different lens under different conditions. The context we now have about the lens config of the sample is a challenge in its own right. The rather bald statement that this has happened with other situations has no examples. That was why I invested a couple of hours shooting with the lens (minus extender) and the R5 or R6 focusing system. I have no issues with the results.

I would be interested in your perspective, if you have viewed them.