topic Re: Grainy images in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Grainy images

Fay — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 03:07:11 GMT

I understand that grain can come from multiple sources, but... I have a new 7D MKII. I like functionality and controls. What I have been having issues with is grain. My main question is this: Can a camera be defective in a way that grainy pictures are the result?

I changed for a 1D to the 7D, because as I get older the 1D got more uncomfortable to handle. (Probably my worse decision in a long time.) So I went from a professional to a proconsumer camera, got that. Also went from 1.3 to 1.6 multiplier sensor (or smaller sensor), got that.

I did a series of test shoots with my camera and my brother's 7D MKII shooting the same image at 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200, and 6400 ISOs. Cameras was on a Canon 600mm lens and then with same len and the 1.4 extender. Grain wasn't an issue.

As most problems with computer driven equipment it is probably operator error, but if there is a possibility it could be the hardware I need to know so I can get this resolved. This isn't my first camera, but it is beginning to feel that way.

Thank you. Fay

Re: Grainy images

ScottyP — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 04:31:40 GMT

Shooting raw or JPEG? Did either of you change anything in the settings?

Re: Grainy images

Fay — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:50:32 GMT

We just checked the problem is constant between monitors I use. Thinking of other hardware issues. I have two SanDisk 32 GB Extreeme Pro CF 160 MS/S UDMA7 cards I use. I use two camera bodies 5D MKIII and the 7D MK II. The cards are both removed, emptied, formatted and who knows if they go back into the camera they came out of.

All images are shot in raw.

I had reset all camera settings to factor before I did the test I mentioned in the previous message. The only setting I returned to what I had been using for the test was to reset the color space to Adobe RGB. Between the test and shooting bird pictures yesterday I reset the following settings. This is list is long, but on some not sure what was factory.

So the settings:

Shooting Menu: 1st:

Raw,
Image review 4 sec
Beep enabledRelease shutter without card off
Lens aberration correction Enabled, Enabled, Disabled
Flash Enabled, Evaluative 1/250-1/60

Shooting Menu: 2nd

Auto Lighting Optimizer: Auto
White balance: AWB
Color space: Adobe RGB

Shooting Menu: 3rd

Pic style: Standard (no changes to the settings)
Long exp noise reduction Off
High ISO speed NR: High

Shooting Menu: 4th No changes

Shooting Menu: 5th

Live View shooting Enabled
AF method: first selection set

Shooting Menu: 6th No changes

AF Menu 1

Set on Case 1 at factory settings

AF Menu 2

Both items set to far right (focus)

AF Menu 3 No changes

AF Menu 4

Lens drive when AF impossible: Off
65 point
I have only the 2nd and 6 option selectioned for AF area select mode

AF Menu 5

Every thing here is set on the first option except AF microadjustment is on since we microadjusted all lens which are older to work with the newer camera body

Playback: 1 and 2

No changes

Playback: 3

Highlight alert Enabled
AF point disp Enabled
Magnification Actual Size

Setup 1:

Created user file name
Auto rotate only on computer

Setup 2

Set date and time
Viewfinder display: Enabled Show/hide in viewfinder
Did use GPS function during the day

Setup 3: No changes

Setup 4: Entered copyright info, firmware version 1.0.2

Custom Functions 1:

Exp Level: 1/2
ISO speed: 1/1

Custom Functions 2: No changes

Custom Functions 3:

Dial direction: Reverse
Custom Controls
Shutter butt: Metering and AF start
AF-On: AF-ON button Metering and AF start
AE Lock: AE lock
DOF: AE lock (hold)
Lens AF Stop: AF Stop
Multi-function: FE Lock
Set button: Set ISO
Main dail: Shutter speed in M mode
Quick dial AO setting in M mode
Multi-controller: Direct AF point selction
AF Area select lever: Direct AF area selection

Custom Functions 3 & 4: Unchanged

If you reached this point in the post thank you. I would appreciate any suggestions. I have a 6000 mile birding trip coming up in about 10 days and topping that off with working in Yellowstone National Park for 5.5 months so I need this camera to be working. At this point I am force to plan to shoot with only the 5D. What a bummer because everyone is raving about the 7D. I on the other hand am beyond frustrated.

Thank you Fay

Re: Grainy images

ebiggs1 — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 14:08:24 GMT

Actually a few samples of what "grain" you are talking about would be nice.

Are you comparing the images to the 1D? The 1D is a fantastic camera that isn't likely to ever be repeated. It had a CCD 4 MP sensor. The 7D Mk II has 20 MP cmos sensor. The imagaes will not look a like. Never! Some still say the 1D is the best portrait camera ever made. I still use mine.

Also remember the 7D Mk II is capable of much greater resolution so that may be what you are calling grain. Post some samples.

Re: Grainy images

TCampbell — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 15:14:24 GMT

Sample images would help.

BTW, when you use RAW, many of those options you are choosing are not applied. Things like white balance, lens aberration correction, color space, etc. are all things that are only applied to JPEG images... But not RAW. When you shoot RAW its up to your computer software to apply those adjustments.

Re: Grainy images

Fay — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:20:44 GMT

Go to http://www.awarenessproductions.com/grainpic.zip You may get this page not found message, but also the request banner at the bottom asking if you want to upload or save. The package includes 8 pic Camera Raw files and the xmp files. Nothing has been done to the images. The hawk in the portrait picture isn't to bad, but there is no real feather detail that should be there. Image _D2A7604 has a Greater Prairie-Chicken in the center that is dismal from the grain.

The swan and hawk images was taken under complete cloud cover. The other four pictures had sunlight.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thank you. Fay

Re: Grainy images

jrhoffman75 — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 20:24:18 GMT

Hello.

I downloaded the images and examined them in DPP3, DPP4 and Lightroom.

The EXIF data shows a 600mm lens + 1.4 extender. DPP doesn't recognize the lens, so perhaps it is not the Canon 600mm f/4L? The high pixel count on this body is extremely demanding on lens quality and shooting practices.

I am attaching screenshoots I took.

The focus point for the hawk is right on the eye, yet the image doesn't appear that sharp.

The prarie-chicken is pretty small, even at a 1:1 size. I can't make any judgement on noise based on that.

If it was me I would be using a less extreme lens combination and a larger subject size to judge performance.

But, if you have indeed done a true A/B comparison (everything exactly the same except the body) and the other body gives better results than there must be a problem with your 7D.

Given your upcoming equipment demands I would send the camera to Canon for a check/adjust for your own peace of mind.

Re: Grainy images

ebiggs1 — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 21:18:10 GMT

Fay,

Several questions just by looking at the screen shot JRHoffman displayed.

What lens are you using? Is it a Canon EF 600mm f4 L? What tele extender brand is it and what strength is it?

Did you do the RAW adjustments or did Mr Hoffman?

It is odd that no lens data shows up but it may be due to the tele extender you have. I only recommend Canon extenders.

I have a Canon 600mm lens and I can tell you it is sharp but it does have its limits. It must be on a very sturdy tripod and SS at 1/1000 is minumun.

What you have looks like what I get with my Tamron 600mm f6.3 lens. Remember with the rig I suspect you have, a 7D Mk II, a 600mm lens and a 1.4 extender, it is going to give you some serious focal length reach. Somewhere north of 1300mm appearent FOV or AOA. Not only is this going to give great magnification, it also magnifies all the ills. Vibration, camera shake, heat waves. etc. gets increased, just as much.

Are you saying the exact same set up combo looks better with your 1D? I can not imagine that it would, if it does there is something very wrong with your camera.

Some suggestions I would change right off is using AdobeRGB instead of wide gamut. Do not use auto WB either. And if you are not using, I would get Photoshop that has just released ACR 8.8. Plus very important get closer, very much closer!

I will d/l you phots later when I get home.

Re: Grainy images

jrhoffman75 — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 21:29:29 GMT

I made no adjustments to the RAW. All three images are default processing in DPP4. I chose DPP4 since it allows the snip tool. I can't use snip tool with LR, but LR didn't show different results.

OP stated that images were compared with a second 7D Mark II.

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=251643

Re: Grainy images

ebiggs1 — Sun, 22 Mar 2015 22:29:00 GMT

So it is a 7D Mk II vs another 7D Mk II wiht the same operator?

As of right now with what info I have, I am thinking this is a technique or lack thereof issue and not a camera issue.

Re: Grainy images

Fay — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 00:33:30 GMT

Thanks guys. Here is my responses to all replies. I understand some changes only impact jpgs but they are there if I need to shoot jpgs.

I use ONLY Canon products, yes I am a snob. The 600 mm is the older one F4. The 1.4 extender is the II version.

SOftness may be shutter speed and microadjustment issues. I have found that my older lens need microadjustment. Was planning to recheck the settings on the 600 in better conditions then what I had originally.

Any adjustments was done by Adobe not by me.

I use a heavy duty Sirui tripod, don't have it close so I can't tell u which model.

I use Adobe RGB.

I used the same rig with the 1D and I never complained to myself or others about grain.

Sometimes the law and the bear or birds don't allow for closeness.

Same operator use two 7D MK II for the aforementioned test.

Pictures looked properly exposed. So not so sure what I should change in procedure at this point.

Do u guys agree that the grain is too much?

Thank u Fay

Re: Grainy images

jrhoffman75 — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 01:53:23 GMT

I didn't find objectionable grain, but If I understand your first post correctly one of the Mark IIs produces results you are happy with and one doesn't. Is that correct? If so, you need to identify what the differences are in the two set ups so you can make both setups the same.

Your statement about the results between the 1D and the 7D sound like what the link I provided is discussing. The confusion to me is that you find the second 7D better under the same conditions. can you post an image from each camera taken under the same conditions.

Re: Grainy images

ebiggs1 — Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:23:45 GMT

"The confusion to me is that you find the second 7D better under the same conditions."

This is where I am losing it , also. Are absolutely sure both cameras and set up is exactly the same? You are not complaining about focus but extra grainyness so it is not micro-adjustment. Grain is really something that is not adjustable.

I will say again and can not stress this point enough, the photos from the 1D and from the 7D Mk II will never look the same.

They are not only two totally different designs, they are worlds apart. Nothing is comparable.

Can you make a side by side, one 7D vs the other 7D same subject and conditions and post the two shots here?