topic Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner) in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

Sk8ermaiden — Wed, 20 Jan 2021 05:09:14 GMT

Hi, I've been the owner of a Rebel T1i for 10 years now, bought used. It stopped working and I just picked up a 7D used for almost nothing. My Tamron 28-75 f2.8, bought specifically for gymnastics meets, is what typically lives on my camera.

I tried to take a class when I got the first DSLR but a weekend was not anywhere near enough time to learn and practice and I reverted to auto for basically everything. I used the sports setting heavily for gymnastics and taekwondo.

There is no sports auto on this puppy, and while I really want to actually learn to use it, I'd also like it to work for me *now.* Like I am fully willing to learn what the most likely useful setting is, or what the sports setting on the canon rebel uses, and go with it until I learn.

I wasn't going to post this question, but I saw how helpful you had been to so many asking similar questions on this forum, I thought I'd gve it a shot. This is definitely more camera than I have any business owning, but the 8 fps has me .

Also, does anyone know a good online course for DSLR beginners? Once that moves slow with a lot of reinforcement or repitition? Thank you so much.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

ebiggs1 — Wed, 20 Jan 2021 16:32:14 GMT

Yeah, Auto and/or Sports mode is probably the worst settings you can use for almost anything let alone indorr sports.

The 7D is more of a pro level camera that's why it doesn't have a Sports mode.

No one can give you the exact settings without seeing the location and conditions there. However, I can give you some basic starting points. I use Av mode for indoor sports. This allows you to set a fixed aperture, say f4 for instance. The 7D will then select the fasted SS it can for proper exposure. Second choose a higher ISO number, 800 for starters. Always shoot Raw format and use a post editor to convert them. Canon offers the very good DPP4 to you for free. You can d/l it if you don't have it already.

You cannot do lens correction with DPP4 since it only handles Canon lenses. But some, most. commercial and some free editors do. I consider post editing mandatory for the best results. Not an option!

Keep in mind the settings I offered are only starters and they may need tweaking. ALways get to the site early if you can and do some test shots. Hopefully you do not have to shoot from the bleachers. Location you shoot from is by far the most important thing.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

ebiggs1 — Wed, 20 Jan 2021 16:33:36 GMT

"... I saw how helpful you had been to so many asking similar questions on this forum,..."

BTW, "help" is our middle name so feel free to ask away!

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

Waddizzle — Wed, 20 Jan 2021 19:48:20 GMT

I do not know the extent of your background or experience, so I will assume not that much background training. There are two parts to being a successful photographer. You have understand the basics of photography, "Exposure Triangle" and "Depth of Field." Those are two good topics to search for on YouTube.

The second part is, of course, understanding your gear. Hear is a series of videos from Canon that teach the basics of photography to absolute beginners. You want to have a comfortable seat, and your camera on a tripod in front of you.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp-znpQge8HxrllwXwn9B0Xxf1f7BQnXC

Hope this helps.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

Sk8ermaiden — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 00:59:13 GMT

Thanks guys, I stayed for an hour when I dropped her off and played with some things. I could not get aperature priority to work very well for action shots (they were usually blurry). Shutter priority between 320 and 400 seemed to get me the best results, but they still are a too dark. Is there something I can do to correct this before it happens? I did a lot of playing with lowering the shutter as far as I could, but obviously failed a lot. And I wasn't there for any running tumbling, which will be even faster.

This one was exposure: 1/320, aperature 3.2 (which was the absolute max I could get in the gym and not have super blurry photos), ISO 1000.

This one was shutter speed 200, aperature 3.2, iso 800.

I'm still reading everything I can find and looking for a good class!

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

BurnUnit — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 01:40:32 GMT

Next time try setting your ISO to 1600 or 3200 and see if you get a higher percentage of "keepers". You may start seeing a bit more noise in your shots but the higher ISO should allow you increase your shutter speed a step or two. And if you shoot in RAW you should be able to clean up most of the noise in editing with Canon's DPP4 software.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

Sk8ermaiden — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 02:19:47 GMT

Thank you, I'll give that a shot tomorrow.

I'm a good with photoshop, but I've never shot in RAW. I'll do some googling about how to get satarted.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

ebiggs1 — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 15:11:06 GMT

"Keep in mind the settings I offered are only starters and they may need tweaking."

Remember I advised to be willing to change those. Av is still the preferred choice, IMHO. Your problem is not Av mode or a slow SS it is insufficient light. Even if you set Tv, your lens is going wide open or at the very least it should. Av defines that, while Tv does not. Also, all camera/lens combos have their limits. You may be at that point with what available light you have in the gym. Since I will bet artificial light from you is prohibited, your only course is jack up the ISO or get a faster lens.

"I'm a good with photoshop, but I've never shot in RAW."

This is very good to know. Always, always and always shoot Raw. Not an option! PS handles Raw files almost seamlessly. You will be offered the ACR converter upon import in to PS. There you can do edits to the Raw data info. Lightyears better then jpg.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

ebiggs1 — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 15:13:46 GMT

"...looking for a good class!"

A good choice and faster than your Tamron might be the Sigma 35mm f/1.4 DG HSM Art Lens.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

Sk8ermaiden — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:01:28 GMT

I definitely tried! I may be able to tweak better after more videos and books and practice. I will say I shot a picture of her getting some PT from a coach in TV, AV and Auto, and I was floored how much better (both, but especially) Av was than auto, wow.

I'll shoot some in RAW tonight.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

Sk8ermaiden — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:05:58 GMT

That looks nice but probably not in the budget for a while! My other concern would be that gymnastics meets are typically in large venues and it's often that I can't get within 200 feet of several events. Sometimes even with the lens I have can't get close enough. It was a class recommendation I was after. 🙂

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

coachboz68 — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 21:44:07 GMT

Hi. I shot my two gymnast daughters for a combined 12 years (one earned a full scholarship for it). In fact, it was them that got me into DSLRs and, funny enough, the first body I purchased was your 7D. Like you, the fps had me enamored. Personally, I'm a football guy (former college player and high school coach) so gymnastics was so new to me. FWIW, here are some of my observations/learning from that time.

1) RAW. Always.

2) I cared way more about the pictures being too grainy than *anyone* else -- especially my daugthers and other parents to whom I would give pictures. I was so focused on this for so long and nobody really cared but me! Push the ISO up and you'll be glad you did. A perfectly timed shot with a little grain (easily removed in LightRoom for me) is 1000x better than a blurry shot without some grain. And, again, what I considered "too grainy" -- nobody else cared about. I regularly shot at 6400 with the 7D.

3) For floor, beam and bars, you can "time" the shots in such a way that don't require as much shutter speed as you might think. The reality is, if you catch the jump at its apex, they're barely moving -- and, that was my dream for so long. Catching the perfect extensions. After a few years, it became quite easy to time it. As you know, for better or worse, you start to know the routines by heart. Vault... that's just a mass of unmitigated motion the whole time! 🙂

4) Turns out my daugthers cared more about what they called "the pretty shots" than the action shots. I'd work so hard to get these perfectly-timed images of them in mid air and their face often looked like a fighter pilot pulling 4 G's. Not flattering to them. They really only wanted one or two of those per season, and even then, they would often pay for the professional shots (more on that later). What they LOVED was the poses that show their "attitude" and posture and such. These, of course, occur on floor and beam and that's where they wanted most of their shots. Vault is rarely flattering due to the violent force showing in their face, and bars can be the same way. But you can get incredible floor and beam poses and facial expressions.

5) Another thing they love is candid shots with the other gymnasts. A high-five. A consoling hug. Laughting around the chalk pit. Them watching another gymnast compete and cheering her on. Hugging a coach after sticking a landing. Those are the ones they LOVED and I kinda ignored that for years because I was hung up on the perfect jump. Great thing about these shots is you're not fighting the dreadful gym lighting for high shutter speeds. You can just shoot normal at 1/80 or whatever. These are the shots they look back on most fondly.

6) We were in Texas the bulk of the time, and if your state is like Texas, the meets are generally huge and the odds of you getting to stand where you need to for those perfect shots... well... about zero. There's always gonna be someone walking in your way. A coach. A fan. 3000 other gymnasts who look just like your daugther to your camera's auto-focus tracking. It's a nightmare. The photographer on the floor paid for by the meet can be half as good as you, but will get so many better shots due to the angles. This used to annoy me to no end, then I just caved in and realized that 90% of the time, that shot is going to be framed better than I could do, and given gymnastics already siphons my cash, what's another $20 or whatever for the one pic. I started focusing way more on shots (4) and (5) above in the latter years. Note: You can photoshop out unwanted artifacts, and I did that on occasion. But in the end, I just didn't enjoy that part as much as shooting the shots I knew they'd love.

7) Finally, for their "wall shots" they kept in their bedroom, that usually came from a private shoot. You've seen them, I'm sure. Really nice lighting, using chalk as an effect, etc. Again, in for a penny, in for a pound. Seemed worth it every couple of years for their "keeper" shots.

😎 If you do want to keep focusing (pun intended) on the fast action shots, work on single-point AF tracking of your subject. The canon tracking system in later models is really good, but I also got very capable with my 7D. It's a feel thing that just takes a lot of practice, and once you know the routine, even better, because you know when the jumps are coming. That's a "skill" I definitely developed with practice. The better I got, the fewer images I needed to capture. I used to just spray-and-pray, but got way better at selective shots over time. But learning to track my subject just took a lot of repetition. I like to read a ton on specs and techniques, but you have to just keep practicing along with it.

Anyway... more than is probably useful, and of course just my take, but hopefully there's a nugget or two in there you can use! Best of luck. And don't blink... it'll be gone before you know it!

Billy

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

ebiggs1 — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 15:23:00 GMT

Billy......I would call you a photographer. It takes some forever and some never to understand what you have.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

ebiggs1 — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 15:54:32 GMT

"That looks nice but probably not in the budget for a while!"

I hear ya man but I must say your Tamron is not the sharpest lens. You will run into its limits quickly. A lens like the SIgma 35mm f1.4 is not only two stops faster it has way, way better IQ.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

coachboz68 — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 18:21:08 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"That looks nice but probably not in the budget for a while!"

I hear ya man but I must say your Tamron is not the sharpest lens. You will run into its limits quickly. A lens like the SIgma 35mm f1.4 is not only two stops faster is has way, way better IQ.

Took me a year or so way back then, but I saved until I could buy a 70-200 f/2 L. Was a serious game changer that I never regretted. Over a decade later, my oldest daughter now uses it (I upgraded to the v2 a while back) and LOVES it. I don't know anything about non-canon lenses but lots of people on here do. What I can tell you is that the upgraded lens was every bit as game-changing for me as the camera body. Keep saving and when you're able, you'll love the upgrade!

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

BurnUnit — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 00:01:25 GMT

Photoshop can do a lot to improve your photos. But when working with JPEGS you'll find that most editing makes global changes in your images. That is, increasing brightness to get more detail out of shadow areas may result in losing details in highlights and mid-tones. Or making a color adjustments to make the sky more blue may also have an unwanted effect on skin tones.

RAW files allow you to do your editing with a lot more finesse. You can tone down blown highlights with little or no effect on mid-tones and shadows. You can color correct skin tones without making the sky turn purple. And if the white balance of a shot doesn't look right you can correct it so easily after the fact that it's almost embarrassing.

Here's a sample of what surprises you can sometimes find in your RAW images. This was done a few years ago when I was using a trial version of DxO OpticsPro. But you could expect to get the same results with Lightroom or Canon's FREE DPP4 software.

I knew there was somebody inside the car, though you couldn't see him in the RAW image as shot. As I made some adjustments to lighten up the darker shadows I was a bit stunned to see that there also was another parrot inside the car with the driver. And I was able to make both of then visible in the background without over brightening or washing-out the colors in the rest of the photo.

(Edit, In The Interest Of Full Disclosure) I originally posted these photos from work where my monitor isn't as finely tuned as my monitor at home is. Viewing this at home with more brightness and less contrast you can make out the man's face somewhat but the parrot is indistinguishable. YMMV: That is Your Monitor May Vary.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

Sk8ermaiden — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:19:53 GMT

If I reach a point where I have learned my camera and the only thing limiting the quality of my pictures is my lens, I will start to save up for a nicer one, but I have a loooong way to go before that is an issue. I don't know about the quality of non-canon lenses in general, but I did a lot of research before buying this one and the consensus on every review, blog, and article I read was that the Tamron was the equal of the equivalent Canon, so I went for it.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

Sk8ermaiden — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:25:36 GMT

Thank you so much for your detailed reply Billy. Yes, we are in Texas. I am trying to practice hitting the apex of skills, I do feel it is easier with this camera than my old one. But what I want this season, my ultimate goal, is a very nice picture of her back handspring on beam. I am starting to think that for things like beam, where they stay on a plane that is pretty equidistant from me, that I should use manual focus. Tracking is definitely a challenge, it is so easy for the tiny square to slip off the intended subject.

I always pay for meet photos, it's my kryptonite.

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

Sk8ermaiden — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:37:04 GMT

I look forward to shooting with and attempting to edit RAW photos. I think I will try to get some tonight while my son is a taekwondo. Speaking of which, the floor is yellow and blue rubber matting, which often casts a weird color, especially on their white uniforms. What can I do to combat that? (This is a random cell pic, just to give the idea.)

Re: Canon 7D Indoor gymnastics photography (complete beginner)

jrhoffman75 — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:59:01 GMT

The lighting may contribute a little, but the biggest effect is reflection from the floor.

In RAW you would use the white balance tool and select the white uniform.

It can be done also in JPEG but as discussed, JPEGs are less forgiving.