topic Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points? in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

coachboz68 — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 05:52:35 GMT

Hi, I have a 1DX Mark II primarily being used for gymnastics shooting.

Assume I select "AF Center Point: Surround" as in the example below [1]:

My question is on the following scenario:

1) I am in AI Servo mode

2) I have acquied the subject correctly (as above)

3) I am using back-button AF to "hold" the lock on the subject as she moves.

4) She is moving moving quickly to our left, a little faster than I am panning.

5) She ends up under the far left focal points.

Given the above, will the AF switching use all the AF points beyond the 9 I selected to keep her in focus? Or does it only pass AF points among the 9 I chose in Surround mode and I have to keep those 9 "covering" her as she moves in order to stay in focus?

Hopefully that's clear. If not, I will explain further.

Thanks in advance for the help!

coach boz

[1] I took a screen shot of this from Canon's video found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM6KkQcNI8w

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

diverhank — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 06:44:02 GMT

The short answer is no...if she moves off the 9 points you'd lose AF. You would have to pan after your subject. It would work if you activate all 61 points but then you don't really have control over which point the focus should be at.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

wq9nsc — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:21:14 GMT

I recently upgraded to a 1DXM2 and have been using it for shooting my daughter's indoor soccer league which "features" very poor lighting with a lot of action. I have found that careful tracking of the action (by me) and manual point selection with four point expansion is providing the best results. I choose a point in the center row 2 down from the top which seems to work best for keeping the focus on the faces. The Canon AF is doing its part but I have to stay mentally focused upon not just capturing the scene but keeping the correct points of the focus array where they belong. With gymnastics you may be able to use 8 point expansion but I found that it was too easy with what I am shooting for it to "follow" something I don't want it to follow.

I am not sure which of the 6 AI servo cases will work best for gymnastics because I have no experience there but someone who has will hopefully chime in. With gymnastics you may need to use differrent AF servo setups for different events and setting those into one of the 3 fast select custom setups will be helpful. Make sure to check the lenses using the procedure in the Canon guide to see whether you need to adjust its focus setup because with the lighting you face I expect you will be shooting with the lens wide open or nearly so with resultant minimal depth of field. I am mostly using a 70-200 F2.8 for indoor soccer and even with it wide open I am often in the 20-32K ISO range to get the proper exposure using a fast enough shutter speed.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

diverhank — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 20:20:47 GMT

I shoot a lot of birds in flight and airplanes in flight and I found the center point with 8 point expansion works best for me. 4 point expansion is unnecessary and makes it harder to track. For gymnastics I think it's OK with 4 point.

You should search the Canon Learning Center website for info regarding the latest Canon AF... Here's one for the 5D3 but should be equally applicable to the 1DX2...hopefully the Admin won't remove a Canon link:

http://cpn.canon-europe.com/files/product/cameras/eos_5d_mark_iii/AF_guide_EOS5D_MarkIII_eng_January2013.pdf

I've done a lot comparison between cases on my own and to be frank, I haven't found any real differences. After a while it's hard to discern real and imagined advantages...Having said that I think I have the most success with Case 5 for butterflies in flight - one of the hardest type of AF one can do. So I ended up with Case 5 for my action shooting. Of course you don't have to follow the 6 cases...you can make your own after understanding which of the 3 settings are important to your particular type of actions

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

wq9nsc — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 20:55:32 GMT

diverhank,

Thank you for your valuable input! I have been trying to experiment some with different settings during the action and I agree that none of the AI Servo case settings jump out as being THE single outstanding choice.

Having the most optimal configuration of settings definitely helps but it doesn't guarantee perfection and a great deal of the variance is still due to the operator.

I spent some time shooting test shots during the game prior to my daughter's game when I first got the camera and I will do this again Thursday trying to refine the setup based upon results from the last attempt. I learned from the first full game I shot that for these very poorly lit indoor games results are better not using the 1.4X converter, the 1 F stop gain without beats the additional reach with it. And although I haven't tried any rigorous testing I expect the autofocus is a little faster with only the F2.8 70-200 lens. Although I have used only Canon lenses for years I may have to consider the Sigma 120-300 F2.8 before next season after I have a chance to review it more completely. A little more reach would be nice but the Canon fixed 300mm F2.8 won't fit my needs. Outdoors the 70-200 2.8 plus 1.4X works very well for soccer and even with the 2.0X sharpness is still good from Canon's excellent 70-200 which is my favorite lens.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

coachboz68 — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 22:41:48 GMT

Diverhank,

First, thank you for the succinct answer in your first reply. That alone was useful.

Second, thank you for the expanded input/advice. I did get the link to the PDF as well.

This was my first shoot with the 1DX2 and while it's servo is exceptional, there is much work to be done by the photographer to help it along. I shot about 2400 pictures (only consumed 49% of battery, btw) and did start to play with the Cases. Which I would use really depends on the event and the angle ... hence the photographer needing to do some work. In one case I was shooting floor routines from the corner of the mat, meaning the subject was full sprint, with handsprings, high flips and twists, all in succession, while moving away from or towards me. That's tough on any AF, especially when during a twist their profile can almost disappear entirely. I imagines birds are the same difficulty and butterflies perhaps harder depending on the background.

I will keep working at it! Thanks again.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

wq9nsc — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 22:52:31 GMT

Coach,

Don't forget during your athletes' practice that the exceptional 4K video functionality of the 1DXM2 is very useful. My daughter has been using video footoage to analyze and work on her kicking form and it has helped her greatly.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

coachboz68 — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 22:58:44 GMT

wq9nsc,

Thank you for your feedback. For kids, most indoor gyms are the same ones used for soccer and gymnastics, so we're fighting the same problem. I shot the last meet with my 70-200 2.8L IS. Reach was fine for the most part, and I appreciate your challenges with the 1.4x converter. I'll avoid that for a while as I elminate as many variables as I can while I break in the 1DX2 and get used to it. Much experimenting and practicing ahead for me!

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

coachboz68 — Tue, 30 Jan 2018 23:01:42 GMT

will do. The day before the meet, I shot a friend at the driving range and did some testing of the video and, in particular, the slo-motion high frames. He watched it and found 3 things he was doing wrong. 🙂 I have two daughters who do gymnastics and the older one is headed to college on a scholarship next year. I cannot wait to get into those college gyms that have much better lighting!

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

Waddizzle — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 00:28:25 GMT

The Canon AF system works the same across a number of bodies now. Use AI Servo mode. I use f/5.6 with my Canon lenses, and f/8 with third party lenses.

For tracking action photography, enable all of the AF points, but use the center AF point as the initial AF point.

You need to enable “AF Assist” points. I like to select the square that can go in any direction, not just the N-S-E-W.

You need to select the AF point display mode that shows all points, which should be the default setting.

You need to set Image Priority. Set both First and Second Image priority to full tilt Focus Priority. No sense in firing the shutter if focus has not locked on the subject.

Shoot RAW. Turn off all of the in-camera noise reduction, and lens correction. You can do that stuff in post. I like to use Clear lens filters, or nothing, at all. I like to shoot Manual mode, with Auto ISO. When I am shooting action, I don’t want to spend time adjusting ISO. Back in the film days, you didn’t adjust ISO, either, just shutter speed, and aperture.

Set an upper limit for Auto ISO in the menus. How high of an ISO setting is too high is up to you. I set my limit at ISO 12800 on a 6D and 6D2. If ISO wants to go higher, then I use -1 Ev exposure compensation to “force” the camera to back down to ISO 12800.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

wq9nsc — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 02:24:46 GMT

I am also shooting manual mode with automatic ISO. With the poor lighting and fast action I am leaving the aperture wide open at F 2.8 with the shutter at 1/500.

Without the 1.4X extender the ISO for a good exposure is ranging from 8K-40K with most of them in the 10K-20K ISO range.

With the 1.4X extender (same arena) most shots were at 51,200 and those are usable for their website but I didn't care for the results. At 25,600 the images are pretty good.

I will be really happy to get outside into better lighting but even though I am on the steep part of the learning curve with processing high ISO RAW files I am impressed that it can produce usable images at 51,200 which was used for the first sample. The second sample is at 16,000 and I think I caused a little blur when taking it.

The camera abilities greatly exceed the ability of the operator at this point.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

coachboz68 — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 20:18:04 GMT

Thanks, Waddizzle.

Very good advice. I do shoot RAW and I don't use filters (I use the lens hood to protect the front, but that's it). Good points on the focus priority setting. I did not change it for this past meet. Also tried a few other of your recommendations. Thanks again!

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

coachboz68 — Wed, 31 Jan 2018 20:22:27 GMT

wg9nsc,

I found the same thing regarding ISO... 51,200 just too much for my taste. 25,600, for my purposes (i.e. not large prints) was more than acceptable and the noise cleaned up well in LR. In general, I find Canon's noise a little more appealing in the sense that (to me) it looks closer to old-school film grain, so for some shots, even has a somewhat nostalgic look for me. It was more than acceptable at 25,600, which I did not anticipate. On my old 7D, beyond 6400 was too grainy for my taste, but that was the first model and nearly 10 years old. I'm very pleased with the upgrade and, like you, the camera far exceeds my abilities at this point.

These forums are a great help.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

TCampbell — Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:41:28 GMT

You should download and read the AF Setting Guidebook for your camera. It's located here:

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2017/eos_1dx_markii_af_guidebook.shtml

In modes such as spot AF, single point AF, expand AF, and surround AF, the camera is really wanting to use one point. The difference is that in "spot" AF the one point is reduced in size. In standard single point it's normal size (not reduced), in expanded AF it gets to use the points above, below, left & right to assist the center point in acquiring focus, and in surround AF it gets to use all adjacent points (including the diagonals) to assist in acquiring the focus... but they're all variations on single point AF mode. You can think of them as changing the "size" of your single point.

It is my underststanding that these modes do not "track".

If you want tracking, then you would use Zone AF, Large-Zone AF, or full Auto AF. The "zone" AF modes will track ... but only if the subject remains in the zone. If the subject leaves the zone, they don't follow the subject. Full Auto AF will track the subject ... but then you've got the risk that it might lock onto something you don't want to focus. This is why they have the preset and also customizable AF "case" behaviors.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

coachboz68 — Fri, 02 Feb 2018 17:27:18 GMT

Tim,

THANK YOU for the guide link!!! I've read the normal manual cover-to-cover a couple times, but this in-depth look at the AF system is *exactly* what I want. I will definitely pour over it in detail.

Prior to reading it... let me repeat back to you what I think you are saying to ensure I have it. Even with the AF surround mode, the 9 points are only used to establish the initial point lock. Once locked, if in AI Servo mode, that point would need to stay covering the subject for the lock to maintain. It does not pass lock among the 9 points. If that is correct, that was a fundamental misunderstanding on my part.

I did understand it would pass focus across points in Zones and Full AF, but one thing I played with here is the initial focal point in AI Servo mode vs letting it auto-pick in One Shot mode. That is very helpful and something I will definitely try at the next meet. Depending on my positioning relative to the gymnastics event, holding a single point over the gymnast in action is too daunting for me. I'd rather play with the "Case" settings to see if I can get it to hold lock a little longer. Very challenging and fun!

THANKS again!

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

wq9nsc — Fri, 02 Feb 2018 18:33:19 GMT

For soccer I shoot with manually selected plus 8 point expansion in AI servo Case 4. This AF mode does switch points when tracking a moving object, only the single point and single point precision mode don't provide any point switching tracking which of course they cannot because you have limited the AF to a single point or portion of a point. AF case 4 coupled with 4 or 8 point expansion is the best I have found for shooting soccer.

For some sports shooting Canon recommends 8 point expansion coupled with Case 6

Of course in a case like this tracking is very limited since you have defined a small tracking area so the action of the tracking system isn't as obvious as it is with a larger zone AF selection but it is a very useful mode when trying to follow fast moving and erratic action.

The ITR (Intelligent Tracking and Recognition) system does only operate in zone or larger focus area selection modes.

ITR may work well for you in shooting gymnastics because I expect you normally have less "interference" from other subjects and objects compared to some of the simultaneous multiplayer sports.

If issuing a grade I would give Canon a B on presenting information in a user-friendly manner. These bodies are extremely versatile and providing setup instructions is complicated because different feature sets interact with each other as in this instance of simultaneous focal point selection and tracking methods further complicated by the whether or not ITR is used. All of the information is available but accessing it and putting it together takes time for the user and although Canon does a far better job than many companies there is no way for someone to instantly become well acquainted with this much information.

The best technical manuals I have ever used were produced by Tektronix for their test and measurements products from the very beginning through current times. Like Canon, Tektronix provided a very indepth operator's manual along with other supplemental guides but they did this with a level of clarity and organization that I have never seen elsewhere and for me they remain the platinum standard of technical writing. But Canon certainly isn't bad and they put a lot of companies to shame.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

TCampbell — Fri, 02 Feb 2018 18:52:35 GMT

Chapter 3 of that book will explain the AF point selection choices in detail.

Expand & surround let you pick the center point and it will be "assisted" by the others. But they do give an example of an athlete who moves out of the center point and the camera does continue to use the surround points to maintain focus.

Re: AF Point Auto Switching - How far will it pass the points?

DaBrownCO — Mon, 20 May 2019 01:41:54 GMT

Waddizzle, as always, your post is extremely helpful. I don't do a lot of action photography, mostly landscape and architectural. However, I've had some struggles with continuous shooting of dogs and people. I thought, incorrectly, that I could do continuous shooting in One Shot mode, but that of course, would only work I presume if I maintain a point in focus.

I suspected my issues with 'shutter lag' had something to do with my shooting mode and the fact that I only had the center AF point enabled.

Your 'recipe' is very helpful since I also use a 6D.

I will definitely try this out next time I'm faced with lots of movement and wanting to get my exposures right.

Thanks,

David