topic Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor? in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

Bazsl — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 19:47:30 GMT

Does anyone have an idea why Canon cannot produce a competitive full frame sensor? Seriously. It has been five and a half years since the Nikon D800 was introduced and over six years since the Sony A7R was introduced and Canon has yet to produce a camera that is competitive with either. Forget about the Nikon D850 and the Sony A7R III. I am sure I will not live long enough to see Canon produce a full frame camera that competes with Nikon's or Sony's current models.

I can see three possible problems.

1) Lack of engineering talent. (This seems unlikely.)

2) Unwillingness to license the IP they need from Sony.

3) Inability to manufacture a competitive sensor.

While 2 is possible it does not make sense to me. Canon states publicly that they manufacture their own sensors using their own foundry equipment. Why Canon promotes this is beyond me since it is a feature with no benefit whatever. No one cares who manufactures Canon's sensors. Customers only care about the sensor's performance. However, I suspose 3 is possible that someone inside Canon is opposed to using and outside foundry, as Nikon did with the D850 sensor, and this is inhibiting Canon's ability to compete.

I would really like to know exactly what is preventing Canon from producing a competitive sensor because I am so frustrated that I am beginning to dream about some way to justify the enormous cost of jumping from Canon to Nikon. Any thoughts?

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

kvbarkley — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 20:44:04 GMT

How many more Canon's are sold than Sony? Sounds competitive to me.

Competitive != absolute best performance.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

Bazsl — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 20:51:21 GMT

By competitive full frame sensor I mean a full frame sensor with equal resolution, equal noise characteristics at ISO 800 and above and equal dynamic range.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

Bazsl — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 20:56:00 GMT

KV, I assume your reply was intended as humorous although my question was not. But in case you were not trying to be funny consider that:

1) Canon's market share is declining steadily although slowly while Sony's is rising and

2) Market share changes reflect product superiority very very slowly due to the inertia cause by investment in glass.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

RobertTheFat — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 22:24:57 GMT

Bazsl wrote:
KV, I assume your reply was intended as humorous although my question was not. But in case you were not trying to be funny consider that:

1) Canon's market share is declining steadily although slowly while Sony's is rising and
2) Market share changes reflect product superiority very very slowly due to the inertia cause by investment in glass.

1) You are comparing apples and oranges. Sony's market share depends on its perceived lead in mirrorless technology, not on the quality of its sensors.

2) It seems to me that virtually every professional photographer I see, either in person or on television, is using Canon equipment. (And yes, Canon's highly regarded lens lineup undoubtedly contributes to the popularity of their equipment.) If Canon is losing market share, then I congratulate you, because your eyesight must be a lot better than mine.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

ScottyP — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 23:31:17 GMT

It would be suicide for Canon to stop making its own sensors. If they stop developing new sensors they fall very quickly so far behind in new patents and manufacturing ability to the point that they can never catch back up.

And if they then make themselves utterly reliant on their competitor Sony for sensors like the hapless Nikon has done, then Sony will have taken over the top two camera makers without ever having outsold them. Then once it is clear it is too late and their competitors have atrophied so far they are hollowed out shells that no longer have the ability to build cameras, Sony starts selling NIkon and Canon sensors more and more inferior to the ones Sony uses in its own bodies, and then maybe stops selling them sensors altogether.

Nikon is circling the bowl. If you want to dive onto their log before it disappears under the surface go right ahead. The Extra half stop of DR will come in handy when you plunge down the dark drain.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

Waddizzle — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 23:20:12 GMT

“I would really like to know exactly what is preventing Canon from producing a competitive sensor because I am so frustrated that I am beginning to dream about some way to justify the enormous cost of jumping from Canon to Nikon. Any thoughts?”

What exactly do you think is wrong with Canon sensors? The combination of a Canon camera and a Canon lens produce impressive photographs, much better looking photographs than Sony at the same resolution.

I would rather have more accurate color reproduction, and better contrast, than the higher MP specifications. Sony sensors cannot compete with the color accuracy that you get with Canon camera/lens combinations. If it were not for Canon lenses, hardly anyone would be buying Sony gear.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

ebiggs1 — Mon, 01 Jan 2018 16:27:17 GMT

Waddizzle does make a point. A camera is a sum of its specs not just one. Personally I can't believe Nikon gave up trying to produce its own sensors or at least most of them. What they are saying is we can't do that. How good of an idea is it to depend on an outside competitor company to provide you with sensors? What if Sony decides to bow out?

Now let me ask you would really prefer the D850 over the 5DS R ? Not not never!

Let's take that one step further, the 5DS R with the EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM Lens vs the D850 and Nikkor AF-S NIKKOR 70-200mm f/2.8E FL ED VR Lens. You can honestly say you would prefer the brand-N ? Not never, not in a 1000 years ever!

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

ebiggs1 — Mon, 01 Jan 2018 16:36:10 GMT

You do realize Canon is planning to supply Canon-made sensors to other companies for the first time. Your next brand-N might have a Canon sensor?!?!?

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

RobertTheFat — Mon, 01 Jan 2018 17:13:22 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
You do realize Canon is planning to supply Canon-made sensors to other companies for the first time. Your next brand-N might have a Canon sensor?!?!?

It's hard to imagine Nikon being willing to buy sensors from Canon. You don't suppose there's a new Chinese or Korean (or even Russian) company planning to jump in?

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

ebiggs1 — Mon, 01 Jan 2018 17:28:36 GMT

Never say never, Robert!

And.....have a wonderful New Year 2018. Don't forget to chaneg the date in your cameras!

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

diverhank — Mon, 01 Jan 2018 18:54:37 GMT

I think the OP is a bit behind the latest news...

The new Canon sensors in the 5D Mark IV and the 1DX II have essentially caught up with the latest Sony and Nikon, per DxOMark - an outfit that never liked Canon in the first place and therefore must have grudgingly admitted it.

And I predict that Canon will leapfrog over the competition in the next round.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

RobertTheFat — Mon, 01 Jan 2018 22:01:27 GMT

ebiggs1 wrote:
Never say never, Robert!

And.....have a wonderful New Year 2018. Don't forget to change the date in your cameras!

Happy New Year to you too, Ernie!

But why should I have to change the date? I just checked my 5D3 and my wife's 7D2, and they both show the correct date and time. I sometimes synchronize my cameras (using EOSU) when I'm going on a shoot with more than one, but otherwise I don't have to touch the date/time settings except when we go on or off of DST.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

Bazsl — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 00:18:01 GMT

Remembering that the original post was about full frame sensors and nothing else here are a couple of comments.

1) Would I rather have the D850 sensor instead of the sensor in my 5DsR? Absolutely! My 5DsR is great up to ISO 400. It is useable at ISO 800. At ISO 1600 and above the raw files are very noisy. My friend's D850 raw files at ISO 6400 have noise comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800. What's not to like? Stepping back a generation, his D810 at ISO 3200 is comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800.

2) Nikon is not dependent on Sony for their sensors. Nikon designed the D850 sensor in house and has it manufactured by TowerJazz, the Israeli foundry with plants around the world, who also manufacture Leica sensors. Google "Who makes the D850 sensor".

I certainly agree that Canon makes great glass. My 100-400 II is my favorite lens which, coupled with my 5DsR, has produced photos with astounding detail. I also love my M5. It is a superb small lightweight camera made better by the fact that I can use my L glass on it. My Nikon friend drools every time I get it out. In addition, Canon's service and support is the best available. However, I don't see how anyone can compare the specs and the photos produced by the D850 to Canon's current offerings and not agree that Canon is well behind on sensors. The only good news is that the 5D IV was a big step forward. I hope the 5DsR II and the 5D V will be equally large improvements.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

Waddizzle — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 00:46:13 GMT

@Bazsl wrote:
Remembering that the original post was about full frame sensors and nothing else here are a couple of comments.

1) Would I rather have the D850 sensor instead of the sensor in my 5DsR? Absolutely! My 5DsR is great up to ISO 400. It is useable at ISO 800. At ISO 1600 and above the raw files are very noisy. My friend's D850 raw files at ISO 6400 have noise comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800. What's not to like? Stepping back a generation, his D810 at ISO 3200 is comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800.

2) Nikon is not dependent on Sony for their sensors. Nikon designed the D850 sensor in house and has it manufactured by TowerJazz, the Israeli foundry with plants around the world, who also manufacture Leica sensors. Google "Who makes the D850 sensor".

I certainly agree that Canon makes great glass. My 100-400 II is my favorite lens which, coupled with my 5DsR, has produced photos with astounding detail. I also love my M5. It is a superb small lightweight camera made better by the fact that I can use my L glass on it. My Nikon friend drools every time I get it out. In addition, Canon's service and support is the best available. However, I don't see how anyone can compare the specs and the photos produced by the D850 to Canon's current offerings and not agree that Canon is well behind on sensors. The only good news is that the 5D IV was a big step forward. I hope the 5DsR II and the 5D V will be equally large improvements.

You’re right. Trade in your Canon gear for a Nikon D850. I want some cheap gear. BTW, I thought you said Sony.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

ebiggs1 — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 14:47:36 GMT

"But why should I have to change the date?"

The date/time does but Robert the copyright date does not update.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

ebiggs1 — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 15:16:07 GMT

"1) Would I rather have the D850 sensor instead of the sensor in my 5DsR? Absolutely! My 5DsR is great up to ISO 400. It is useable at ISO 800. At ISO 1600 and above the raw files are very noisy. My friend's D850 raw files at ISO 6400 have noise comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800. What's not to like? Stepping back a generation, his D810 at ISO 3200 is comparable to my 5DsR at ISO 800."

You answered my question and that is your choice. I would not but I will say at first I did consider buying a D850. It is impressive no doubt. I will grant you it has better high ISO performance. But that is where the "better" ends. Like I said a camera/lens combo is a sum of its parts and specs. Not simply one. If high ISO is your main most thing thn you should probably buy the D850. But if the best camera is than one of the current 5D models is. 5DS R, yes!

This is no different than the guys that try to sell you on a 6D or 6D Mk II in favor of the 80D because it has one stop better low light performance over the 80D. When the 80D as a package is clearly the better camera.

As FF sensors go, I understand Canon has been using age old equipment to manufacture their sensors. A few years ago they started a big upgrade and improvement to the foundry. We will have to wait and see if that means good things to come. Canon already has unique sensors that no one else even dreams about. Will that technology trickle down to our consumer cameras, probably!

Nikon has no sensor foundry that I no of. They outsource everything whether they design it or not. Does this make Nikon sensors bad? No of course not but it does put them into a second class producer company.

For most of my life I was a photographer. Worked for a large company for 40 years. Now I am a 'gear head' so this debate is right up my alley. I just like camera gear. Always have. I buy camera gear sometimes I rent it. I sell it on. I test and play with it.

One last thought for this reply, the lens you choose has more to do with IQ than the camera. What'a say?

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

RobertTheFat — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 15:21:20 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"But why should I have to change the date?"
The date/time does but Robert the copyright date does not update.

Nice recovery, Ernie! But I don't think the copyright date is intended to update. Don't you want it to reflect the date the work was created?

I suppose you make a good point, though. I've never included the date in my copyright notices. I guess I assumed that the presence of the date in the Exif info would sufficie.

One thing I have tried to include is the ubiquitous "circled c" character. But unless there's been a very recent firmware change, I've yet to encounter a Canon camera that would accept it. Are you listening, Canon?

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

ebiggs1 — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 15:24:57 GMT

"2) Nikon is not dependent on Sony for their sensors."

For the most part, they are. They contract Sony to make a million sensors or whatever give or take a few thousand. When that contract is fulfilled it is done. Nikon has no sensors.

Sony is just one sensor manufacturer. I think Sony is the largest maker but Sanyo, Samsung, Toshiba and others make a lot of camera sensors. I also understand from my sources that Sony never offers their top sensors for sale. Makes sense I guess. Why would they?

Now I hear Canon will make sensors for sale on the market, too.

Re: Why can't Canon produce a competitive full frame sensor?

Danny — Tue, 02 Jan 2018 15:57:34 GMT

Hi, Bob!

The EOS-1D X Mark II can accept the circle-C (©) copyright symbol via a firmware update, as can the EOS 5D Mark IV. This is done by inputting IPTC metadata directly into each image file as it's taken by the photographer.

We hope this helps!