topic Re: Help with grainy photos in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Help with grainy photos

EJean82 — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 02:26:25 GMT

I have a Canon 80 D with a Canon 70-200 f2.8 is iii lens. I have been shooting my daughters gymnastics meet which tends to have poor lighting. I am struggling with getting the appropriate setting to get clear shots. They either have a lot of blur or are super grainy.

I attached an example. This is post processed in Photoshop to lighten up the image and try to reduce the grainy stuff

My setting are

RAW

f2.8

IS on

1/400

ISO 2500 ( and this is typically dark right out of the camera)

Al Servo

any tips would be great. Im getting super frustrated!

Re: Help with grainy photos

Ray-uk — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 12:44:30 GMT

First off it's not grain it's noise. Film cameras had grain (or at least the film did).

If you are being forced to underexpose your shots and then brighten them in post processing that will add greatly to the noise levels. I can't really see what you can do under the poor lighting conditions other than use flash, but I doubt that the internal flash will be powerful enough and you probably need an external flashgun to fit in the cameras hotshoe.

Re: Help with grainy photos

TTMartin — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 15:04:27 GMT

You can make OOF areas look noisy by applying global sharpening.

800% view of unsharpened OOF sky

800% view of oversharpened OOF sky.

If you are using Lightroom avoid using global sharpening settings like 'Clarity' that also 'sharpen' OOF areas.

The way to avoid this is to use Masking to apply a heavy sharpening mask in Lightroom so you don't sharpen even areas.

By pressing and holding the 'ALT' key, while moving the 'Masking' slider you can see what is being masked. Black areas will not be sharpened.

Smooth unsharpened bokeh.

Typically when using a heavy mask I set sharpening to 100. By using a heavy mask I can keep my noise reduction settings lower. My Noise Reduction settings are usually Luminance between 10-25, Contrast is set to match, i.e. 10-25, and Color is set to twice the Luminance value i.e. 25-50. I leave Detail and Smoothness at their defaults.

Re: Help with grainy photos

TTMartin — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:44:38 GMT

@EJean82 wrote:

My setting are
RAW
f2.8
IS on
1/400
ISO 2500 ( and this is typically dark right out of the camera)
Al Servo

any tips would be great. Im getting super frustrated!

Use Manual mode with Auto ISO. You don't want to underexpose your photos. With Canon cameras it is better to boost the ISO than it is to increase exposure in post processing. Don't be afraid to let your camera use high ISOs (6400+). The photo below was taken with a 7D Mk II at ISO 12800..

Increase the shutter speed as necessary to eliminate motion blur. Remember IS only eliminates blur from camera shake not from subject movement.

Canon 7D Mk II, EF 100-400 L IS II + 1.4X TC III, 560mm, 1/800, f/8, ISO 12800

Processed as described above.

'Clarity' was left at 0

Re: Help with grainy photos

EJean82 — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 15:34:06 GMT

Thank you!!!!

Re: Help with grainy photos

EJean82 — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 15:34:41 GMT

You aren't allowed to use any type of flash at a gymnastics meet

Re: Help with grainy photos

ebiggs1 — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 15:57:00 GMT

EJean82,

You shot isn't all that bad. Here it is with just auto levels applied in PS. I quickly removed the distracting thing on the wall, You can do a better job if you want.

"My your setting are

RAW

f2.8

IS on

1/400

ISO 2500 ( and this is typically dark right out of the camera)

Al Servo"

My settings would be

Raw

f2.8 or f4 (you might try using Av mode, too)

IS on

1/500

ISO 3200 (don't worry too much about "right out of the camera")

One shot

Evaluative

I have been talking lately with some of my pro sports buddies that are still in the business, and most are using Auto ISO. I never did and I don't like it. I want to know where my ISO is set and I want to control it myself. But today's cameras are so munch better at higher ISOs that I can see it should be, might be, OK. BTW, I would remove the apparatus and person on the right side of the shot too. Maybe put the blue BG all the way across?

Another thing to keep in mind is, don't be afraid to try other settings during the event.

Re: Help with grainy photos

ebiggs1 — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 15:59:04 GMT

"You aren't allowed to use any type of flash at a gymnastics meet"

Big no-no. It will get you dis-invited quickly. Never, never do that.

Re: Help with grainy photos

wq9nsc — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:08:40 GMT

Shooting indoor meets is when placement and lens choice become about as critical as it gets in sports photography. I use a Canon EF 200 F2 quite often when shooting volleyball and basketball but it is an expensive lens. However the EF 85 F1.8 is a very reasonably priced fast indoor lens and the EF 135 F2 is also excellent slotted in price between the other two but far closer to the EF 85 price. If you can get close enough, the EF 85 F1.8 will do a wonderful job with indoor sports and I have used it in an indoor soccer facility with horrible lighting.

I never use flash even when it is allowed for a sport except during breaks in action for special events like when seniors and their parents are introduced during their final home game and absolute best photo quality is needed. I shot a swim meet last week that had to be paused for a moment because a parent was at the front of the spectator area firing away with a flash which interferes with the strobe starting setup. One would think a swim parent would know better.

When you start pushing ISO, framing the image where little cropping is required is the single biggest thing you can do to reduce the noise issue. An expensive lens is the easiest way to do this but perfect placement lets you accomplish the same with a far less expensive lens.

As an example of what happens with extreme cropping, the first image below is cropped to around 60% of the 1DX Mark II sensor area and the second is around 20% where even the 1DX Mark II starts showing noise in the background. This could be further processed out but provides a good example of the benefits of filling that sensor. Image was shot with 1DX 2 F2, 1/640 ISO 1600 using an EF 200 F2 lens.

For indoor shooting, if the lighting is perfectly even across the facility (it seldom is) then I meter and set everything to full manual. For typical gyms I set aperture wide open, shutter fast enough to freeze action (usually 1/500 or 1/640) and leave the ISO at auto. I always shoot in RAW file format.

Rodger

Re: Help with grainy photos

ebiggs1 — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:12:50 GMT

Great shots as usual Rodger. I will say, though, the OP's lens is f2.8 so a difference between your f2 and it would not be a game changer. I do like the idea of a 135mm f2, however, since the OP's shot was at 140mm or so.

Where did you have your WB set? The shirt looks fine but her face seems a bit off. Always a critic!

Re: Help with grainy photos

wq9nsc — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:24:24 GMT

Thanks Ernie and my only complaint about the newly renovated gym is that the lighting would be very good except it is highly mixed. The strongest contribution is "old school" strip style florescent with a few high pressure sodium lights around the perimeter which bounce off the walls and floors adding their own special color cast. And some of the florescent tubes are of radically different color temperature, too bad they didn't go with LED strips when they did the update 2 years ago.

I shot one HS football game last year in a stadium that used lights I had never seen before. At the source they were narrow horizontal beams but at the field they provided very nice consistent light across the field and I would love to shoot more games there.

The closest I have found to realistic is using florescent as the white balance choice when processing the RAW files. In the past I tried shooting cards for custom white balance and they work perfectly for the location and angle where recorded but not well elsewhere in the gym. At least the school is consistent in their inconsistency because the football field uses a mixture of mercury vapor and high pressure sodium lamps creating the same issue for football (and JV soccer which is played under lights early in the season).

I shot their final home wrestling meet a couple of weeks ago, the first time I shot wrestling, and the combination of varied lighting plus the reflections from an assortment of different wrestling mats made for some really odd coloration. Fortunately soccer season is about to start with lighting kindly provided by mother nature 🙂

Rodger

Re: Help with grainy photos

ebiggs1 — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:47:50 GMT

Well setting WB in levels in PS doesn't change the shot very much. It may have lightened her shirt a bit. So you did do a goood job with your chossen WB setting. Again good job as always.

Whatever, anyway, I bet she is going to love this photo. Make her a print!

Re: Help with grainy photos

wq9nsc — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:53:53 GMT

Thanks Ernie, your PS (and photography expertise in general) is always appreciated!

Rodger

Re: Help with grainy photos

PhotoGerry — Sat, 22 Feb 2020 12:40:08 GMT

Thats one hell of a great picture (of the hawk) taken (at max reach?) with your EF 100-400 L IS II and 1.4x extender. I'm still thinking about purchasing the 1.4X extender for my kit. I like what you've done with the sharpening and masking in Lightroom which I don't have. Hopefully the same can be accomplished with photoshop of which I'm still learning on.

Re: Help with grainy photos

ebiggs1 — Sat, 22 Feb 2020 15:33:39 GMT

I am not a tel-con fan. I don't recommend them at all. If you must get one, though, make sure it works with your lens or the lens you intend to use it with. They do not work at all with some lenses. They are always a compromise.

Re: Help with grainy photos

PhotoGerry — Sun, 23 Feb 2020 11:42:40 GMT

I will be mounting the extender (if purchased) on my 5D Mark III with the EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS II USM Len. Would appreciate any tips from anyone similarly equiped. I hope to spend some time at Bald Eagle nest this summer with enough reach to the nest.

-G.

Re: Help with grainy photos

ebiggs1 — Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:25:44 GMT

Keep in mind beside losing some IQ you will lose a full f-stop. That means you will be an f8 lens at 400mm. Neither is a big deal, you just need to be aware of it.

Re: Help with grainy photos

wq9nsc — Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:56:38 GMT

Be sure and use the micro AF calibration setting to calibrate your lens with the extender in place at both ends of the zoom range before heading for the eagle nest.

I use a slightly modified version of the Canon AF calibration procedure to speed setup. I use their specified micro focus adjustment process EXCEPT I initially take a set of test photos at the -8, -5, -2, 0, +2, +5, and +8 points and examine those carefully on the computer screen and that will let me zero in on the setup with high confidence with one additional set of test shots. For example if the proper offset looks like it is at or very near +5 then I will take a second series at +3, +4, +5, +6, and +7 and check these on the computer so basically with two sets of test photos I will know exactly what the calibration adjustment should be and this can be easily done in 10 minutes total.

A tripod will be EXTREMELY beneficial for your eagle photos this summer. With the extreme focal length, stability is critical and with some loss of IQ from adding the extender you want to be able to run your camera as close to its base ISO as possible to preserve the greatest detail and a stable camera perch will allow you to use the slowest shutter speed that doesn't introduce subject induced motion blur.

Rodger

Re: Help with grainy photos

coachboz68 — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:48:50 GMT

I've been shooting gymnastics for about 13 years. Everyone is going to have great advice, so this is just mine, FWIW.

1) I never worry about the white balance. I shoot everything in RAW and adjust those as desired in post processing. Trying to get that right with those fluorescent lights is too much work for me.

2) For the first few years,I *obsessed* over noise. Then I realized I seemed to be the only one who actually cared. I'd show the pics to my daughters and their teammates, parents, etc., and everyone was just super happy to have quality shots.

3) A little de-noise in Lightroom goes a long way, and while it softens the image a bit (depending on how much you apply) it turns into what most would consider a pleasing effect on the overall look.

4) Unless they allow you to be the "official" photographer, you're going to constantly be fighting innumerable factors that are going to make that perfect action shot really challenging. It's just hard to get to the right spot among the chaos of an event. College is soooo much better in that regard! Even in the shot below, the framing is rubbish because I've got the heads of the people on the beam, the scoreboard in a terribly distracting spot, etc. Yet another reason to focus on my final point...

5) Get a few good action shots, and then focus on the emotional parts. The gymnasts talking to their coaches for corrections, or that special hug after they peeled off bars, or the high-five with the teammates racing to meet them coming off the mat. That, and the "pretty" shots where they are posing during the routines seems to be what they love once they get the few "that's badass" shots of them in mid air, like below. But, for many of the action shots (especially when they are flipping) their faces look like they're an alien because of the force on their skin and eyes!

Took me a lot of years to accept point 4 because I love action shots as a photographic challenge. Also, as a former football player in college, then high school coach, I know the action shots football players love. I didn't know from gymnastics, so they had to "teach" me over the years about the ones they loved.

Re: Help with grainy photos

ebiggs1 — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 05:36:54 GMT

" Even in the shot below, the framing is rubbish because I've got the heads of the people on the beam, the scoreboard in a terribly distracting spot, etc."

Photoshop