topic Re: planning upgrading from t3i in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

planning upgrading from t3i

iphonemaster93 — Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:52:00 GMT

Hey guys!

So I've had my t3i for a while and I think I'm hitting the limitations in the t3i in terms of what I'm doing now. I've had the camera for about 1-2 years (was given to me as a xmas gift) and up until now, I've done automotive photography, nature photography, as well as portrait photography. I thought that the T3i was already a good enough camera for me to suit my needs but I realized I might need more now but I'm not sure. One night, I was doing rolling shots with a few buddies of mine and noticed in post processing, that there was a ton of grain in most of the pictures if I turned up the shadows (was shooting in betwen 1/10-1/20th of a second at F8.0 at 3200ISO. What are the benefits of upgrading from a T3i or do I just need a better lens? I was thinking of going to either a T4i or a T5i but at the same time, I want to go for a full frame sensored camera but I don't know if the types of photography I'm doing right now require such an advanced camera such as the 5D MkII or if the t4i/t5i will be good enough. Also, do the lenses for the T3i work for the 5D MKII or do I have to purchase new lenses for it? I'm guessing the lenses for the T3i are compatible with the T4i and the T5i. Thanks!

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

ScottyP — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 00:39:00 GMT

If noise/grain at high ISO is your main complaint, another Rebel will not be your solution. The T4i and T5i have practically the same sensor as your T3i, and none of the crop sensor cameras, not even a 7d2, are very much better in this regard. If hih ISO noise is the main issue, you need to go full frame to see significant improvement. I used to have a T3i and it looked awful at ISO 3200, and really I didn't like the grain and loss of detail at 1600 or 800 either.

You don't mention lack of complex autofocus for sports as a problem, and As that is the primary improvement you'd get in an updated crop body, such an upgrade might not have much value for you.

Before you consider upgrading anything, make sure you have first upgraded your lenses beyond the kit lenses. A full frame camera might get you image quality at 2 or 3 times the ISO compared to your T3i but a bright lens would do a lot better than that. A brighter lens would keep you out of those ugly high ISO ranges by letting about 4x or even 8x more light into your camera. And such a lens would also be sharper than the kit lenses, and would let you use a shallow depth of field for artistic effect too.

What lenses do you have?

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

ScottyP — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 05:01:02 GMT

Hi.

No one else has answered, so I will address the part of your question I didn't address.

If you ignore the mirrorless "M" lenses (as most people in the U.S. Market do), they have only 2 lens mounts; the EF mount lenses and the EF-s mount lenses.

EF lenses mount on BOTH full frame bodies AND crop sensor bodies.

EF-s lenses ONLY mount on crop bodies.

A nice prime lens like 35mm f/1.4 from Canon or Sigma would make a good walking around lens on your crop and would work on a full frame body later on. One of the new EF 50mm f/1.8 STM lenses is only $120.00, and it would be a great portrait lens on your current camera. On a full frame camera it will still work and many people consider 50 mm to be a perfect standard length on full frame.

Take this example: At 50mm, your kit lens variable aperture 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 is at f/5.6 max aperture. An EF 50mm f/1.8 STM could go as wide as f/1.8. F/1.8 lens lets in more than EIGHT TIMES as much light in. That is over 3 stops of light, but your example was shot at f/8, so that would be OVER SIXTEEN TIMES MORE LIGHT, or 4 stops. Your grainy ISO 3200 could have been a nice sharp ISO 200, or you could have been running with a faster shutter speed, or some combo of the two.

And an f/1.4 lens would let 32x more light in than your f/8 ISO3200 example. That is five stops of light. You could have quadrupled your slow shutter speed and still have been shooting ISO 400.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

amfoto1 — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 05:12:01 GMT

T4i or T5i will do you no good. They have essentially the same sensor and high ISO performance as the T3i. 7D and 60d use the same 18MP sensor, too.

70D and 7D Mark II have a slightly newer 20MP sensor that might be slightyl more high ISO capable.

The T6i or T6S is the latest and greatest model, with a new 24MP sensor and a one or two generation newer processor. I haven't used it, so can't really say if it delivers more usable high ISOs.

Your best bet would be a full frame camera, which can be used at one to two stops higher ISO successfully... plus their images don't need as much enlargement, so any noise remains less apparent. The 6D is said to be the high ISO king of Canon models right now. It's able to autofocus (center point only) in considerably lower light than any of the above models, too.

Larger aperture lenses, either on your current camera or on an upgrade camera also would help. I don't know why you were using f8 for that shot you descibed... you could have used ISO 1600 and f5.6... or ISO 800 and f4. Or you could have used 2X as fast shutter speed, ISO 3200 and f4. Some lenses have f2.8, f2 and even f1.4 apertures. But one concern is that larger apertures also will mean shallower depth of field, which may or may not work, depending upon what you were shooting.

I have to say, though, that I use 18MP 7D (same sensor and processor as your camera) to ISO 3200 and even 6400 at times. I shoot RAW, am very careful to avoid underexposure and apply some noise reduction in post-processing. I use a Noiseware plug-in with Photoshop, but know there are several other good NR s'wares too. I will sometimes do separate and stronger noise reduction in shadow areas, too.

And I know folks who have managed even higher ISOs with 7D... They do even more extensive and careful noise reduction work than me... applying it separately in each color channel, for example.

One mistake a lot of people make is being overly critical of their images. If you're looking at an image at 100% on your computer monitor, that's equivalent to making a five foot wide print and then viewing it from about 18" away. Of course you'll see noise (among other things)! Back off to 25% for more reasonable evaluation of things like noise, sharpness, and focus. That's still equivalent to a fairly large print... say an 11x14.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

ScottyP — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 05:55:06 GMT

Lenses.

Lenses.

LENSES.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

ebiggs1 — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 13:55:50 GMT

"... not even a 7d2, are very much better in this regard."

Yes it is.

The new 7D Mk II has significantly netter high ISO than you Rebel. The T6i is going to be somewhat better.

The biggest problem with high ISO is people severely under-expose the shot. Understandable because it isn't often used unless the scene is very dark. It is going to be difficult for any camera to do a great job. There are just certain limits where nothing will work well.

I don't know exactly what you are shooting but faster lenses will help. Plus constant apertures are better. I assume you just have the kit lenses with your Rebel? I will say they are not worthy to use on a new 7D Mk II if you want the most it can provide. So whether you decide to go 6D (FF, a great high ISO camera) or not, you will need new lenses.

But do keep in mind all cameras have a limit to what is possibile.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

ScottyP — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 15:57:49 GMT

According to DXO Mark, the 7d2 gives less than one stop of low light high ISO image quality improvement.

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-600D___977_692

It is a great camera and I might get one for sports for its great autofocus, it's improvement in low light IQ is quite modest compared to what you would get going full frame, and it is nothing compared to what you would get by buying a brighter lens.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

ScottyP — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 17:23:23 GMT

Here it is with all 3; T3i/600d plus 7d2 plus 6d.

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-600D-versus-Canon-EOS-6D___977_692_836

The IQ of the T3i at ISO 800
is like the 7d2 at ISO 1100
and equivalent to the 6d at ISO 2400.

As big an improvement as the FF camera is for low light, even that is not nearly as effective an upgrade as going from a kit lens to a bright prime lens.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

iphonemaster93 — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:23:48 GMT

I have a 50mm 1.4, a 17-55mm 2.8, and the 18-55mm 3.5.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

iphonemaster93 — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:26:58 GMT

The reason why I had my ISO up at 3200 is because I typically do rolling shots anywhere from F8-F16 at ISO 100-400, depending on the time of day as well as what my shutter speed is set at. This was at around 8 at night so if I was shooting at anywhere below F8, I don't think I would have gotten the results I wanted. With all the other types of photography that I do, true I could use my 50mm and been shooting at anywhere below ISO 3200 but this won't be the only time I will be doing rolling shots at night haha. I also don't feel safe with mounting my DSLR on the outside of my car, otherwise I could be doing like a one second long exposure or longer.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

iphonemaster93 — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 19:30:32 GMT

Thanks for your input! I found the 17-55mm 2.8 to be perfect for my portrait, nature, as well as rolling shots (I would use my 50mm for those rolling shots but it's easier to control the zoom on the lens in comparison to moving a car from a lane to another). I'm deciding that I'll most likely go with the 7d Mark II. I only have about 1500 to spend so I don't have enough saved up for a full frame camera at the moment (even though the 7D MKII is a thousand below a full frame like the 5D MKIII) and I see myself getting one of those in the near future. I've watched a few YouTube videos and to me personally, it's going to take me a while to get to know the camera since it's much more complex than the T3i in terms of the amount of functions it has and the continous AF for video will help me out big time as well (I'm going to be majoring in film and I currently am an active YouTuber). But let me know what you guys think! Thanks again 🙂

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

ebiggs1 — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 22:42:16 GMT

Regardless what DXO Mark says, I find this to be more true. This is compared to other APS-C sensors but mostly the 70D was used in this test.

"At ISO 800 and 1600, the difference, while still not huge, is more easily recognized. The 7D II's advantage grows stronger at ISO 3200 and 6400. I have typically avoided these ISO settings on prior APS-C models, but I'm pleased to see ISO 3200 looking this good. ... As you probably expected to hear at this point, improvements are also seen at ISO 25600.

Going where no Canon APS-C DSLR has gone before, the Canon EOS 7D Mark II brings us the found-only-in-full-frame-models-until-now ISO 51200 setting."

Now you have two differing views. You have the lenses, now you need a 7D Mk II.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

ebiggs1 — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 22:46:55 GMT

You have to learn how to read DXO Mark and sometimes between the lines. And I guess this is true of any review. My personal experience with a 7D Mk II is limited because I have no use for a APS-C any longer. But I can say from that "limited" experience it is very good. Very good, indeed.

You must remember all cameras have a limit to what they can accomplish. Even the lofty 1Dx has a limit.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

iphonemaster93 — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 23:28:40 GMT

Yeah I'm just waiting to see when I can purchase one and/or pick one up 🙂

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

iphonemaster93 — Tue, 23 Jun 2015 23:30:59 GMT

That's why I'm going to pick up the 7D MkII. I thought that the T3i was perfect for me a year ago when I first got it (I came from using my mom's Sony NEX-5N and a Sony Cybershot Camera [my own personal camera]) and when I got serious with YouTube, that's when the T3i came into play as well as photography. A year later, I've done more photoshooting than I've made YouTube videos and I realized that I've reached the limit in terms of what I would like to do with my T3i, hence the decision of going for the 7D MkII. Hopefully this will be a good purchase for me in the future!

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

ScottyP — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 18:13:21 GMT

Hard to go too wrong with that. You already have two bright lenses, which was basically what I was hoping you had or planned to get. Also you shoot moving cars in some way I am not completely clear on, so the better AF will serve you well in that regard, and in daylight the 1.6x focal length boost makes your excellent 17-55 lens and any other lens you acquire considerably longer.

Good luck with your new camera.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

iphonemaster93 — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 19:33:47 GMT

Yeah I'll definitely be doing a lot more night time rolling photoshoots with some friends in the near future. These two are one of the many pictures I shot. Both of the shots, As soon as I turned up the shadows, the grain started showing. Took these both at 3200ISO.

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

amfoto1 — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 21:31:12 GMT

If you "turned up the shadows" on these, they were heavily underexposed... which is pretty much guaranteed to make for a ton of noise as soon as you turn it up in post processing.

SHOOT RAW AND AVOID UNDEREXPOSURE LIKE THE PLAGUE.

To me your sample shots still look a bit underexposed (nore on that in a moment).

In fact, it's often better to overexposure your images a little... I use +1/3 stop for 3200 and +2/3 stop for 6400... then pull the image brightness back down in post processing. This minimizes noise, rather than amplifying it.

I hope you don't mind... I took one of your images into Photoshop, lightened it a lot and increased the contrast... then applied Noiseware noise reduction (same "formula" that I use with my 7Ds when shooting at ISO 3200)... then resharpened the image a bit. Normally sharpening will really increase the appearance of noise, which is why I didn't do any more until after applying NR.

It improved quite a bit, I think. But would have been even better working from an original, full size RAW file that had not been so heavily underexposed. I also fooled around with the color balance a little.... But there are mixed types of light in the image so, I didn't go to far with this. If it were my image and I were spending more time optimizing it, I'd do a color balance on the main subject and foreground, then adjust the background separately. Anyway, here's the result...

Regarding underexposure... Do you have your computer monitor calibrated? The reason I ask is that most monitors are way too bright to work with photographs, leading you to make too dark images, to the point you don't realize how much you are underexposing them when shot. The first step in calibration is setting the monitor's brightness. When I first got my current monitor 3 or 4 years ago, I had to set it down to about 20% brightness for accurate prints. Now, after several years use I still have to turn it down to about 50% or my prints and images posted online end up way too dark.

I am afraid you might be disappointed with a new camera if you don't resolve some other things first. Don't blame the gear! As it is, you likely aren't getting anywhere close to the best possible high ISO shots out of the camera you've got now.

***********

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7D(x2), 50D(x3), some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & EXPOSUREMANAGER

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

iphonemaster93 — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 23:07:46 GMT

thank you so much for the information and advice! No worries, I don't mind at all 🙂 I normally don't mess with any noise reduction filters in post editing because I normally make it look even worse (LOL) so that's why I usually underexpose -1/3 or -2/3 stops. I used to overexpose way too much and my friend (he's a professional wedding and portrait photographer) recommended me to underexpose by -1/3 to -2/3 stops haha. So I guess now, I'll underexpose and overexpose my shots, depending on the situation.

I also use to blame the gear that I have but I understand it more now haha, it's my technique that messed with me in the past and it's still messing with me right now but I know it's a step by step learning curve. I also do not use a monitor, I edit all of my pictures with LR and PS on my Macbook Pro. I just put in the order on BH Photo last night and the camera is supposed to come in tomorrow morning. I'll be attending a car event this Saturday and I'm doing a photoshoot with some buddies on Sunday so I'll keep you guys updated!

Re: planning upgrading from t3i

RobertTheFat — Fri, 26 Jun 2015 12:23:50 GMT

@iphonemaster93 wrote:
thank you so much for the information and advice! No worries, I don't mind at all 🙂 I normally don't mess with any noise reduction filters in post editing because I normally make it look even worse (LOL) so that's why I usually underexpose -1/3 or -2/3 stops. I used to overexpose way too much and my friend (he's a professional wedding and portrait photographer) recommended me to underexpose by -1/3 to -2/3 stops haha. So I guess now, I'll underexpose and overexpose my shots, depending on the situation.

You say that as though it were nonsense, but it isn't really. Wedding photographers use a lot of flash, and with flash you have to be especially careful to avoid blown highlights. Other types of photography have different caveats.

That said, some flash photographers, especially those who don't uderstand Canon's TTL algorithms, do tend to underexpose their backgrounds, sometimes catastrophically. But that's avoidable if you know what you're doing.