topic Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

llehmann — Sun, 19 Jan 2020 18:20:14 GMT

The question is are there any settings in camera that will affect the raw file when editing in Lightroom.

Eg) setting the picture style. White balance, auto lighting optimizer

After I import the images and apply my basic starting settings to the images... Will the camera settings that were used have any affect on the images?

Or are the settings basically for jpg images and how the image is displayed on the back of the camera?

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

Waddizzle — Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:15:15 GMT

As far as I know, the camera settings have no impact on the actual image data captured in the RAW file. But, the settings can and do impact the embedded JPEG within the file. Once you load the file into LR, it will generate its' own preview image and save those within the LR catalog.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

kvbarkley — Sun, 19 Jan 2020 19:33:35 GMT

All other settings besides exposure have no affect on the RAW file. DPP will take that data and generate a RAW that looks like the JPEG. However, Adobe does not bother to decode all that data, and just tries to give you the RAW file it thinks best. You take it from there.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

ebiggs1 — Mon, 20 Jan 2020 18:18:48 GMT

"The question is are there any settings in camera that will affect the raw file when editing in Lightroom."

I will attempt to make your question a bit more clear.

None of the settings you set in the camera are "ignored", all the settings are used to produce the Raw preview image in LR. Also the histogram is stored but remember most settings can be changed in LR without quality loss. These settings are stored in a metadata file embedded in the Raw file.

The settings that effect light hitting the sensor such as the aperture and SS are saved and are set at shooting time. That can't be changed later in LR. ISO is also set at shooting time, ISO can't be changed in LR either.

Basically, aperture, SS and ISO are set at exposure time. That's it.

The WB set in camera is used by the Raw conversion in LR but can be overridden in post processing again without any quality loss. Picture style is used by the Raw conversion in LR and can also be changed post processing with no quality loss.

NR and lens corrections can also be changed in post processing.

The real bottom line is the extended flexibility that Raw offers. Get the exposure correct and the rest is good. It isn't like the camera settings has nor affect on the image. It does, it is just that this extended latitude offers more ability to edit with out IQ loss. You are always going to start off with the settings you selected in the camera.

LR and all third party Raw converters, you can't view a Raw file, use their own algorithms to do the conversion so you can even see the image. DPP is the only editor that uses Canon's own routine. Some, myself included, like Adobe's routine better. As a matter of fact so does the rest of the entire industry as Adobe is the standard.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

Waddizzle — Tue, 21 Jan 2020 02:58:30 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"The question is are there any settings in camera that will affect the raw file when editing in Lightroom."

I will attempt to make your question a bit more clear.

None of the settings you set in the camera are "ignored", all the settings are used to produce the Raw preview image in LR. Also the histogram is stored but remember most settings can be changed in LR without quality loss. These settings are stored in a metadata file embedded in the Raw file.
The settings that effect light hitting the sensor such as the aperture and SS are saved and are set at shooting time. That can't be changed later in LR. ISO is also set at shooting time, ISO can't be changed in LR either.

Basically, aperture, SS and ISO are set at exposure time. That's it.

The WB set in camera is used by the Raw conversion in LR but can be overridden in post processing again without any quality loss. Picture style is used by the Raw conversion in LR and can also be changed post processing with no quality loss.
NR and lens corrections can also be changed in post processing.

The real bottom line is the extended flexibility that Raw offers. Get the exposure correct and the rest is good. It isn't like the camera settings has nor affect on the image. It does, it is just that this extended latitude offers more ability to edit with out IQ loss. You are always going to start off with the settings you selected in the camera.

LR and all third party Raw converters, you can't view a Raw file, use their own algorithms to do the conversion so you can even see the image. DPP is the only editor that uses Canon's own routine. Some, myself included, like Adobe's routine better. As a matter of fact so does the rest of the entire industry as Adobe is the standard.

This ranks as one of the best word salads that I have ever seen Ernie create. Technobabble at its' best.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

ebiggs1 — Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:51:10 GMT

"Technobabble at its' best."

I hope you liked it and you learned from it since Raw seems so misunderstood. It isn't a fully correct statement to say Raw does not affect the image.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

jrhoffman75 — Tue, 21 Jan 2020 15:00:52 GMT

"Picture style is used by the Raw conversion in LR and can also be changed post processing with no quality loss.

NR and lens corrections can also be changed in post processing."

I don't think this is correct - to the best of my knowledge Lightroom doesn't recognize the Picture Style set in camera when working with a RAW file. Best way to demonstrate that is shoot a monochrome image in camera. It will be color in LR.

Lightroom doesn't recognize any noise reduction or lens corrections set in camera, and, if one is always shooting RAW, disabling the in-camera corrections is recommended since the in-camera number crunching, especially with DLO, can slow down shooting speed.

Long Exposure Noise Reduction in camera will alter the RAW file, or more correctly create a new RAW file. The camera takes a second shot with the shutter closed and subtracts that file from the original, thereby reducing the noise effect from sensor heating.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

ebiggs1 — Tue, 21 Jan 2020 15:52:12 GMT

"I don't think this is correct - to the best of my knowledge Lightroom doesn't recognize the Picture Style set in camera when working with a RAW file. Best way to demonstrate that is shoot a monochrome image in camera. It will be color in LR."

When you import into LR the very first thumbnails that you see appear are the embedded jpg metada stored in your Raw file. All the settings you had in your camera. The jpg thumbnails are automatically generated by your camera and based only on your camera's settings, LR at this instant has no effect.
After import and depending on your LR preview settings, LR will generate a jpg and preview based upon what it sees in the metdata. That's how it all begins. LR's uses its default settings unless you choose to import applying a preset to do the final preview.

Why don't the two matct the first instant and final LR image, B&W to color, etc, for instance? Because the camera processed jpg's metadata stored in the Raw file are based upon Canon camera defaults and/or settings. This means all your settings do affect how you see your Raw image in any post editor Raw file converter. LR interpretation of the same image data will be different.

Why is this important? Because it is the starting point for you to start your post editing.

There is no totally unaltered Raw image. None that you ever see anyway. A Raw file always needs processing to produce a useful image. The advantages in Raw is that the resulting file is open to greater renderings without any destruction to the original Raw data file. You can change and alter the image in LR to make it look the way you like but never alter the original Raw file. That is the main most take away.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

TCampbell — Tue, 21 Jan 2020 18:22:25 GMT

The only thing that I can think of that is legitimately applied to the RAW data is the ISO (the gain setting). Boosting ISO applies an "amplifcation" (gain) to the data (you could do this in-camera... or you could it post-process on a computer).

The CR2 file contiains kinds of information:

The actual "RAW" information from the sensor. In RAW mode the camera records whatever the sensor recorded (it does not tweak the data based on settings).
A JPEG "preview" (thumbnail ... not full resolution). This thumbnail is generated based on current settings and is meant as a preview.
The "meta-data" (all the non-image data) this includes things like the date & time, GPS location (if applicable), but also camera settings such as white-balance, picture style, etc.. While these settings are recorded as meta-data ... they are not applied to the actual RAW image data itself.

This means that software that chooses to read the meta-data and allow you to apply them later (post processing on your computer) can do so... but that software doesn't *have* to do this (and probably not many non-Canon programs will do this).

Demo this:

Switch your "Picture Style" to "Monochrome" and take a photo with the camera saving as RAW (.CR2).
Review the image in-camera and you'll see it is a black & white image.
Copy the image to your computer and open it with Canon Digital Photo Professional.
1. You will see it is *also* a black & white image.
2. Check the picture style setting in DPP and you'll see it says it is "monochrome" BUT...
3. change the picture style to something else (e.g. "standard" for example) and you'll see it switches to COLOR (becasue the RAW information actually does contain the color. The picture style was being applied on-the-fly as DPP opened the image *because* the meta-data said you shot it as monochrome.
4. Exit DPP but make sure you do not save any changes.
Open the image with Lightroom but WATCH the image as you do.
1. You'll see that just briefly as the image is imported... it is a monochrome image but very quickly becomes a color image.
2. This happens because the JPEG preview imbedded in the RAW file is monochrome... but Lightroom quickly rebuilds it's own preview based on the RAW data and the RAW data actually is color.
3. Also note that Lightroom doesn't bother to apply the picure style.
Don't forget to return your camera to whatever picture style you were using or you'll be wondering why your previews are all monochrome.

Take-aways:

The real image is color ... only the embedded preview thumbnail and meta-data show it as monochrome.
Canon DPP applies the picture style info found in the meta-data (it would also apply other meta-data such as white-balance) But ttat's not in the *real* data... the real data is RAW.
Adobe Lightroom ignores this. It shows the embedded preview thumbnail *only* until it generates it's own preview.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

ebiggs1 — Tue, 21 Jan 2020 23:29:49 GMT

Exactly, you confirmed what I said. All Raw converts do read the embedded info contained in the Raw file.

"3. Also note that Lightroom doesn't bother to apply the picure style."

Correct but it did read it. Thus it does have a bearing on the starting point for post editing. The fact the jpg preview image you see in LR doesn't physically show each Picture Style doesn't mean it didn't influence LR, or any other Raw converter. One main reason I prefer LR is I think it is a cleaner file.

Lets consider WB for instance. LR has a selection that says "As shot". If it can apply 'as shot' LR had to read the WB setting in the camera from the Raw metadata. It doesn't really matter what WB was set in the camera. You can change the WB to a completely different setting but LR knows what it was.

"... RAW mode the camera records whatever the sensor recorded"

True but it can not be viewed. Something has to be added to it and processed to make a viewable image. Whether it is DPP which reads and uses all the camera settings or LR that just uses enough to get you an image you can see, its there.

To further complicate this LR can be told to apply any number of user presets that will overwrite any camera settings. Again the botom line is increased editing possibilities and a none destructive Raw file,

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

TCampbell — Wed, 22 Jan 2020 06:05:51 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:

<snipped a bit for brevity>

True but it can not be viewed. Something has to be added to it and processed to make a viewable image. Whether it is DPP which reads and uses all the camera settings or LR that just uses enough to get you an image you can see, its there.

To further complicate this LR can be told to apply any number of user presets that will overwrite any camera settings. Again the botom line is increased editing possibilities and a none destructive Raw file,

Ernie, all true. I didn't want to get too deep in the details to avoid confusing the answer.

The bottom line is the camera knows what you did and recorded all the data ... but did it in a way that did not destroy original information in order to apply your shooting preferences. It is sort of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too.

The major benefits of shooting RAW are that it preserves the maximum amount of detail which provides the greatest possibility of success when post processing the image. Also, the RAW data is 14-bit color depth (vs. JPEG which is only 8-bit color depth). Each bit doubles the amount of information. Those extra 6 bits work out to 64 times more information in a RAW image then there is in a JPEG image.

The details of how the RAW data is converted into a full-color image are really another topic because those details don't change the answer to the original question.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

ebiggs1 — Wed, 22 Jan 2020 14:51:15 GMT

"The bottom line is the camera knows what you did and recorded all the data ... but did it in a way that did not destroy original information in order to apply your shooting preferences."

No, as that resides in the metadata. The conversion editor reads some or all of it to make the viewable (LR) preview. The Raw data, that is simply the data caught by the camera sensor, is not affected.

"...the RAW data is 14-bit color depth..."

Absolutely, a huge benefit. Why anyone shoots jpg any longer is a total mystery to me.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

llehmann — Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:53:59 GMT

Thank you all for the insight.

As I've learnt... basically on the exposure settings (iso, shutter speed and aperture) are the only settings in camera that are being used in LR. After applying my LR starting settings which change things like picture style, wb, contrast, sharpness, lens correction, etc. those camera settings don't transfer to the image, or are not appended to the image, on top of the settings I am changing them to in LR.

All that being said, we shouldnt forget about the new LR Profiles. As they don't change the settings used and just append to the raw file settings. So unless you change a setting specifially in LR... the new profiles don't seem to do that. 🙂 Another topic for discussion.

I think a lot of photographers don't really realize this. Very misunderstood topic for something that we should all know. I know I wasn't 100% clear on it and have been playing around with picutre style and syncing cameras to make sure they were all the same.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

ebiggs1 — Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:01:10 GMT

The big take away is, the folks that say Raw is not affected by any in camera settings are just partially correct. They don't effect the Raw data that is true. They do have an impact on how your Raw converter creates you a viewable preview. That preview image in LR or DPP is your starting point so it does impact it. Not considering any LR presets you use, of course.

Re: Canon 5D Mark iii Raw images

MichaelGClark — Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:49:13 GMT

"The only thing that I can think of that is legitimately applied to the RAW data is the ISO (the gain setting). Boosting ISO applies an "amplifcation" (gain) to the data (you could do this in-camera... or you could it post-process on a computer). "

With Canon cameras, ISO is applied as analog amplification before analog-to-digital conversion and is irreversible. Any change made to the digital raw data in post is not the same as changing the ISO prior to digitization where quantization occurs. Boosting exposure in post processing is not the same as boosting the analog amplification prior to digitization and can lead to quantization errors.