topic Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

yteln — Sat, 14 Dec 2019 03:36:39 GMT

Hi,

I just got a brand new Canon 80D and took some test shots on the exact same settings as my old T3i (f/stop, shutter speed, ISO but also all the other settings I could manually set.. white balance, focus mode, exposure comp, flash exposure comp, image effects, auto correct image brightness off, one shot AF, metering mode, etc.). Also swapped the lense so that it was the same on both.I set both cameras to take L + raw and am comparing jpegs.

I'd expect 80d win this comparison but t3i produced much nicer, brighter images. Even when looking at just LCD screen I could immediately tell that t3i photos are brighter and better looking, but then downloaded it on PC and confirmed that as well.

How's that possible? Either I'm missing something or my new 80d doesn't function properly since it's obviously a much better camera and with the same settings should produce superior images.

Any ideas what I may be missing, any hidden setting which might be causing it or is there anything I can do to figure it out?

Regards

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

RobertTheFat — Sat, 14 Dec 2019 04:23:56 GMT

@yteln wrote:
Hi,

I just got a brand new Canon 80D and took some test shots on the exact same settings as my old T3i (f/stop, shutter speed, ISO but also all the other settings I could manually set.. white balance, focus mode, exposure comp, flash exposure comp, image effects, auto correct image brightness off, one shot AF, metering mode, etc.). Also swapped the lense so that it was the same on both.I set both cameras to take L + raw and am comparing jpegs.

I'd expect 80d win this comparison but t3i produced much nicer, brighter images. Even when looking at just LCD screen I could immediately tell that t3i photos are brighter and better looking, but then downloaded it on PC and confirmed that as well.

How's that possible? Either I'm missing something or my new 80d doesn't function properly since it's obviously a much better camera and with the same settings should produce superior images.

Any ideas what I may be missing, any hidden setting which might be causing it or is there anything I can do to figure it out?

Regards

Which camera produces a more realistic image? I'm going to guess it's the 80D.

The 80D, a newer and more expensive camera, undoubtedly has a greater dynamic range than the T3i. Which means that a picture taken under normal lighting conditions will take up more of the dynamic range of the T3i than of the 80D. This is apt to make the highlights brighter, and the shadows dimmer, on the T3i. But it's really an artificial effect. You can choose to have the same effect on the 80D by turning up the brightness and contrast in post-processing, but what you're really doing is matching the artificiality of the T3i.

Also, you should be shooting in RAW mode on the 80D for best effect. (You should be shooting in RAW mode on the T3i as well, but it will probably make less difference there.)

Also note that when assessing the accuracy of an image, you can't always trust your lying eyes. The human eye-brain combination has an uncanny ability to project what it expects to see on a scene. A camera lacks that ability and has to show you what it actually saw, which may not be what you thought you saw.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

Waddizzle — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 00:45:41 GMT

Same settings? Does that include downloading lens data into the 80D?

Speaking of lens, what lens did you use? A high resolution sensor can miss focus with lenses that are not all that sharp. For example, zoom in on the image to 200%. Does it look soft? That is almost what the camera is seeing to bring the image into focus.

Zooming to 100% means your monitor displays one image pixel per monitor pixel. The 80D images should seem as if they are zoomed in deeper, because they are. The 24MP image from the 80D will need more display pixels than an 18MP image from a T3i.

As far as picture style, color and contrast intensity goes, the T3i is has more noise to hide than the 80D. I suggest that you use a quality lens. The EF-S 18-55mm IS STM lens that comes with some 80D camera kits is a pretty good lens when shooting with good light and low ISO.

The EF-S 18-55mm lens that usually came in T3i camera kits was an older design. The newer STM model runs circles around it.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

yteln — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 01:14:39 GMT

Thank you for your replies, I used a prime EF lens 2.0/f1.4.

I guess there's just much more coming into "what image is better" than the first impression. Or maybe I expected too much out of 80d based on reviews.

Also one thing I can definitely agree with is that t3i is much more noise on higher ISO than 80d, however I rarely shoot over 400ISO.

I'll need to think whether I want to keep 80d or get something better.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

Tronhard — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 06:35:19 GMT

For what it's worth I have two 80D's and they both function perfectly. I also have the Canon 600D (the same as the T3i) while it is an excellent camera of its type and time, the 80D renders better results. across the board.

It would be helpful if you could supply a photo of the same subject taken by each, along with the appropriate details so that we can appreciate your issue.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

wq9nsc — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 13:43:15 GMT

When you state you are comparing jpg images, are you comparing the jpg produced by the cameras or are you comparing the jpg resulting from conversion from RAW in DPP since you state you are shooting L+ RAW? For doing a critical comparison, I would use the RAW files into DPP.

The brighter image could easily result from the jpg conversion used and/or you t3i may be slightly overexposing with the 80D producing results closer to the actual scene. It is much like audio where properly set up higher end gear should provide an accurate reproduction of the source material while individual listeners may prefer greatly accentuated bass or other colorization not present in the source material. Use the RAW output from your camera and adjust the RAW to JPG conversion parameters to provide the style that you prefer.

Rodger

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

Waddizzle — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 15:03:34 GMT

@yteln wrote:
Thank you for your replies, I used a prime EF lens 2.0/f1.4.

I guess there's just much more coming into "what image is better" than the first impression. Or maybe I expected too much out of 80d based on reviews.
Also one thing I can definitely agree with is that t3i is much more noise on higher ISO than 80d, however I rarely shoot over 400ISO.

I'll need to think whether I want to keep 80d or get something better.

I cannot tell what lens you are referencing.

Many shooters who move up to a camera body with much higher resolution than what they are accustomed to using are often disappointed with initial results. Using a lens with a low resolution can result in soft images.

Your technique on how you hold the camera becomes more acute. A small camera shake with the T3i might effect 1-2 pixels. That same amount of shake might effect 2-3 pixels in the 80D. The 32MP 90D is getting similar complaints of soft images.

The observation that JPEG files are "baked" in different ways in different camera bodies is spot on. Comparing JPEG files can be misleading. Comparisons should be made with RAW files.

Finally, please post examples of the issues, along with the exposure settings. Without seeing samples, this discussion is pretty pointless. We have no idea what you are talking about, and no matter what you are told will change your opinions.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

ebiggs1 — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 17:18:22 GMT

"...I could immediately tell that t3i photos are brighter and better looking, but then downloaded it on PC and confirmed that as well."

This is impossible if both cameras are exposing properly. Brighter could be a result of your setting on the LCD screen or your monitor. One very important thing you need to keep in mind, is all current and even recent DSLR's are very good. The improvements are going to be slight. Some people set their TV's to very vivid colors almost comic book levels but they think and to them the picture is great. Is it accurate, well probably not.

As others have said you need to do comparisons done in Raw format. The same lens. Converted in the same post editor and viewed on the same monitor. Not on two different camera backs for instance.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

ebiggs1 — Sun, 15 Dec 2019 17:22:41 GMT

"The human eye-brain combination has an uncanny ability to project what it expects to see on a scene. A camera lacks that ability and has to show you what it actually saw, which may not be what you thought you saw."

This is so true. It is a good idea to have two or more people look at the A-B comparisons. When I prepare wedding photos or Senior photos or any photos for sale, I always have at least three people look over the proofs before I do any printing or delivering to the client.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

Peter — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:05:14 GMT

@yteln, would you like to share the raw files?

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

yteln — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 19:32:46 GMT

Sure, you can see a comparison here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/161b7JrLDXR5ed7yS6oUAWu_4RyMIK1fj?usp=sharing

I was focusing on bananas, 3 bottles of water and a guittar respectively. E.g. if you look at bananas t3i is clearly sharper. Of course there are also some photos where 80d wins (not by much) but overall I'd say it's a draw or the difference is tiny on CR2. On jpg imo t3i looks better even on big screen and definitely better on LCD of the camera. I understand this might be subjective, but I was expecting a bit more from the camera 3x the price of t3i so that's why I'm a tiny bit disappointed.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

ebiggs1 — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 20:15:24 GMT

" I understand this might be subjective, but I was expecting a bit more from the camera 3x the price of t3i so that's why I'm a tiny bit disappointed."

If you expected a 3 times better photo you are going to be very disappointed. Every time! Improvements in DSLR tech is already advanced to where improvements come in slight to very slight increments.

I looked at a few of your samples.

"...jpg imo t3i looks better even on big screen and definitely better on LCD of the camera."

This you can not do. The LCD may be set brighter and it is the LCD you like better, not the photo. Same for your monitor. Keep in mind you can not view a Raw file. It has to be converted. How you do that and by which converter you use can affect the resulting jpg by a lot. Conversely, when you shoot in jpg your camera converts the Raw file in its conversion routine. I think you are confusing "brighter" with "sharper". It is a common mistake most people make.

I would encourage you to do some research on post editing as it could be how you are doing it. The ability to edit in Raw far exceeds what can be done with a camera converted jpg. The 80D has very much more room to do these adjustments over an T3i.

Besides the IQ improvements in the 80D keep in mind how many other features it has like wi-fi that cause a price increase but has nothing to do with IQ.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

yteln — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 20:31:16 GMT

Yes I understand comparing image on LCDs doesn't make much sense. The only reason I mentioned that is cause when I'm shooting I like to show the images on the LCD screen to models and for them how it looks on the LCD screen is everything. They dont' have really a sense of how much image can be improved in post-editing so it's somewhat important so that it looks as good as possible on the LCD as well.

Anyways, let's leave the LCD aspect aside, I would be interested hearing your thoughts on the CR2 images themselves.

Also, good point about wifi and other functionalities. I guess the price increase is mostly for those extra features and IQ is not *that* much better.

I was kind of expecting more after seeing some images from mirrorless sony a7 III my friend was taking. But that's again 2x more expensive than 80d itself so not a fair comparison either.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

ebiggs1 — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 20:36:42 GMT

"I would be interested hearing your thoughts on the CR2 images themselves."

OK, I can't do that because you can't view a Raw file which is what a cr2 is. It has to be converted. The samples on your site are conversions by whatever editor or viewer you used. Can I d/l one or two of them and do the editing myself in PS?

"... I like to show the images on the LCD screen to models ..."

I do this also. I even use my laptop but I make sure they understand these are 'proofs' and not final production. You should do likewise.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

Tronhard — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 20:55:23 GMT

File formats have evolved along with the hardware. Thus, both the characteristics of both RAW and JPG files have changed over time. By rights that should mean that they have got better, but a lot depends on what you view them on, and in the case of RAW what software you convert them on and how it is configured.

A photograph is created only in part in the camera, what happens in post production can have a profound impact on the image - just look at the work of Ansel Adams or Lee Miller to see their original and final releases.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

Peter — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 21:22:53 GMT

@yteln wrote:
Sure, you can see a comparison here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/161b7JrLDXR5ed7yS6oUAWu_4RyMIK1fj?usp=sharing

I was focusing on bananas, 3 bottles of water and a guittar respectively. E.g. if you look at bananas t3i is clearly sharper. Of course there are also some photos where 80d wins (not by much) but overall I'd say it's a draw or the difference is tiny on CR2. On jpg imo t3i looks better even on big screen and definitely better on LCD of the camera. I understand this might be subjective, but I was expecting a bit more from the camera 3x the price of t3i so that's why I'm a tiny bit disappointed.

If you lift the shadows in a raw converter you will see that 80D has much less colour noise than t3i has. 0095.CR2 vs 1044.CR2.

About focus it seems like 80D and your lens are front focusing (Micro adjust it later). You should start with Live view. Then 80D and t3i will set AF without issues in Live view. Is it an old Sigma lens or Tamron lens?

The image below shows dynamic range 80D (IMG_0097.CR2) vs t3i (IMG_1046.CR2).

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

ebiggs1 — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 21:17:54 GMT

"If you lift the shadows in a raw converter you will see that 80D has much less colour..."

Of course, I believe the OP doesn't realize this. The Raw file has to be edited in post to a degree he/she thinks is right. The cr2 that the OP is using as a comparison is a jpg generated thumbnail from the Raw data. It isn't a final product!

I asked for permission to d/l one or two of their Raw files to do the post myself in PS. I have not received that yet.

When a camera is set to record jpg it does so with all the in camera settings, picture style, etc. A Raw file does not and is not effected by those. An 80D cr2 is going to have far more latitude than a T3i does. But even that is not to say a T3i photo can look very good. It can.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

yteln — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 22:32:18 GMT

Thank you all who chimed in, this is very helpful.

Yes feel free to download the raw files and please lmk your findings.
Regarding the lens - it's yongnuo 50mm f2, not the greatest but it's just for comparison.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

ebiggs1 — Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:11:50 GMT

OK I apologise right up front but remember you asked!

There is no lens correction in PS for a "yongnuo 50mm f2" lens. It is junk. Get rid of it.

I d/l the first two of the guitar photos from each camera, The 80D and the T3i. I stopped right there because both are so far out of focus to be unusable. Or the lens is so bad as to be unusable. There is absolutely no way to compare these shots.

For any meaningful results form either camera you need to get a decent lens. Even the cheapest kit lens will do better than what you have. A best buy lens you might want to consider is the ef 50mm f1.8. At any rate shown is an example of the corrected editing in PS of one shot. Other than extreme OOF you can see it is a pretty nice photo.

Re: Canon 80d worse than Canon rebel t3i

ebiggs1 — Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:40:13 GMT

Also keep in mind the above photo is the one you claimed is the best. It is from the T3i. Here is the one from the 80D.

Again extremely OOF or extremely poor lens. Impossible to compare or to say which is better or best.

BTW, LR reports 35mm, not 50mm, and f2 for 1/60 SS with ISO 100. My correction added 1 full stop exposure. Lens correction not possible since it doesn't exists in my version of LR and/or PS/ACR.