topic Re: Help in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Help

Gloflosmith123 — Sat, 23 Nov 2019 02:42:47 GMT

Help I just bought a 7d from my son who only used it to video so he’s not much help in what I want to use it for ... I want to take pictures of barrel racing ... what lenses should I be looking to buy or Do I even need to buy one ... until spring everything will be indoors so lighting might be a issue to ... any help will be so much appreciated ... settings also would be fantastic as I’m just starting out

Re: Help

wq9nsc — Sat, 23 Nov 2019 12:27:06 GMT

I am not sure what lens you currently have but if your budget allows, the 70-200 F2.8 is a very versatile lens for a variety of sports and it will work well for barrel racing IF you can get reasonably close to the action (not high up and far away in the stands). The 70-200 F2.8 is a very nice quality lens that is extremely versatile for both fixed and dynamic scenes and one that is on either my primary or backup body at the majority of sporting events I shoot. For most Canon owners, a 70-200 2.8 should be the first of the better quality Canon lenses you purchase. The IS (image stabilizing) version of the lens is nice for a lot of shots but is of less value in sports where you are shooting at high shutter speed and for your use if you are trying to minimize cost you could go with the less expensive non-IS version which would be a better choice for your use than the F4 with IS.

Ernie really likes the Sigma 120-300 F2.8 which is a very versatile coverage range. It is one I am going to try as soon as I can make time to do so because I trust Ernie's experience with this glass. It should be an excellent sports lens but it is considerably more than the Canon 70-200, long fast glass is just expensive but when you start pushing the capabilities of a camera system it is usually the lens that is the weakest link (once the owner understands how to get the most from the gear).

Location is the most important determinant of overall image quality and your 7D with a basic lens will capture better images than a $15,000 camera and lens used in a poorly chosen location. Quality results from the amount of thought you put into the image before you ever press the shutter release.

Lighting can be an issue with indoor sports and with barrel racing I suspect that a shutter speed of around 1/800 is the slowest desirable although you MAY get decent shots dropping down a step but anything below 1/800 is going to be inviting motion blur for the horse and rider action. This fast shutter speed will push the need for the camera to use a high ISO in poor lighting and this is where the F2.8 instead of the smaller and less expensive F4 or slower lens is very worthwhile.

I have never shot barrel racing but I watched a friend's daughter compete years ago and it is a very fast sport. Photo timing is key and although the easier method of using continuous drive to try to "frame" the action might be better when you are learning to photograph the sport I suspect that you will find the best results come from single shot mode and perfectly timing your shot instead of using the camera in "machine gun" mode.

Rodger

Re: Help

Gloflosmith123 — Sat, 23 Nov 2019 12:35:36 GMT

Thank you so much ... I think I might ask for Christmas a new lens ... I’m so excited .... thanks again

Re: Help

wq9nsc — Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:03:30 GMT

You are welcome and have a great Christmas!

Rodger

Re: Help

ebiggs1 — Sun, 24 Nov 2019 15:30:15 GMT

Like I suggested in your other post, the Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS III USM Lens is the gold standard. No other lens or brand is in this lens class. It is almost a mandatory lens for any sports type photographer.

I have a friend who is a pro photographer on the "horse" circuit. He does lots of horse shows, rodeo's and barrel racing events. Now you might want to be sitting down to know what lenses he uses, the EF 200mm f/2L IS USM Lens and the EF 300mm f/2.8L IS II USM Lens. His normal lens is the EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM Lens another must have, BTW. He uses a 1D Mk IV camera. If you have a spare fifteen grand lying around this is what you need.

If you don't, I love the thought of the Sigma 120-300mm f/2.8 DG OS HSM Sports Lens. I have found myself grabbing this lens more and more. It is amazing. It is on sale as we speak, too.

One thing that is super important and often overlooked is, where are you going to be shooting from? My friend has a pass so it isn't a problem for him. But it just might be for you. Most of the events have a pro and some don't really like it when guys show up with pro gear and shoot also. If you are confined to the stands that will alter your course of action.

Of course higher ISO's and higher SS is a given. Faster lenses like the suggested examples, f2.8, or faster will help. Use One shot and just the center focus point. Average WB but use Raw file format and use a good post editor. Easy! Get lucky. However great gear will make you luckier.

Rethinking this statement, "It is ~~almost~~ a mandatory lens for any sports type photographer."

Re: Help

Gloflosmith123 — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 01:08:47 GMT

I’m a barrel racer and hubby is a ropers so most jackpots don’t have a photographer ... most finals do ... I won’t step on anyone’s toes ... I can be right out in the arena so distance shouldn’t be a problem ... thank you so much for this info :)))

Re: Help

wq9nsc — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:09:07 GMT

Those 200 F2 and 300 F2.8 lens are magic but magic is expensive. I took both to shoot a 3V3 soccer tournament yesterday and ended up using only the 200 because of the small "field" size and very poor indoor lighting and made do with a 135 on the second body instead of the usual 70-200 2.8 because the lighting was so poor that the extra aperture stop was worth the tradeoff in having to let my feet be the zoom portion of the lens for the second body.

The 200MM F2 does a superb job with fast focus in servo mode but depth of field is razor thin with a F2 telephoto wide open and I keep a second group of settings in memory on both bodies so that I can go between the fast shutter speed wide open aperture action setup to a greater depth of field for bench and celebration shots.

I REALLY wish Canon had a "quick" button that would either toggle instantly between two sets of parameters or could be held to shift parameters instantaneously. Using the mode switch to go between memorized settings works but it would just be a bit of software for Canon to add a big piece of convenience to these pro bodies through programming one of the buttons for this feature and hopefully the 1DX III might bring this capability. I can tap a button on my Cadillac to go instantly from sport to touring mode which reprogarms steering, shocks, throttle response, traction control, etc and I would like the same convenince for a professional camera body.

Not to be forgotten is the 135 F2 which is a decent short/medium tele that is a very good indoor action lens if your position makes this a good focal lengthn and it is FAR less expensive then its 200 and 300mm siblings. Focus speed isn't quite as fast but it is very fast and is noticeable only when you are shooting one of the really expensive primes on one body and the 135 on the other.

And Ernie, I really am going to take your advice about giving the Siggy sports zoom a try. I am still mentally getting over what I spent installing a 40 kilowatt diesel standby generator earlier this month. It is one of the few things I have bought recently that is more expensive than high end Canon prime glass but convenience and reliability comes at a cost and it will be well worth it having a stable power source that comes on automatically every time the commercial power does one its frequent winter power failures 🙂

Rodger

Re: Help

ebiggs1 — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:15:03 GMT

"... it will be well worth it having a stable power source that comes on automatically every time the commercial power does one its frequent winter power failures"

Whoa! I bet it will. No power, no fun.

Let me know if/when you get the big Siggy.

Re: Help

ebiggs1 — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:23:17 GMT

"I’m a barrel racer and hubby is a ropers so most jackpots don’t have a photographer ..."

My wife's folks are all from Colorado on her mother's side. They ended up living in Cortez. I've been to lot's of rodeos but never as the photographer. Her cousin had a huge ranch around the Delores area off the Glade road. Another was the foreman on the Ute Nation reservation/ranch near Salida. Another until his death was a farrier that followed the rodeo circuit.

Most are all gone now.

Re: Help

Gloflosmith123 — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 17:12:45 GMT

I found some second hand close to where I live ... he wants to see as a set with camera but will possibly sell separately... can I post a picture somehow of what he has ? Maybe I will see if I can copy and paste

Canon 7D DSLR

Speedlite 430EX II TTL Flash

Canon 100mm-400mm L (pro lens) telephoto

Canon EF-S 15mm-85mm lens

Canon EF-S 10mm-22mm wide angle lens

Complete with two batteries and external charger

Ok these are what he has ... is there anything in here that would work and how much should I offer

Re: Help

ebiggs1 — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 19:35:42 GMT

" I just bought a 7d from my son..."

You have this so you don't need another. Otherwise I would not want any of the other gear he has. The ef 100-400mm could work if you get it cheap enough but it would not be my first choice. If most or all your events are in the daylight it will do a nice job f-stop wise but on a 7D it might be a little too long FL wise.

There are two versions you did not say which this one was. Version 1 I would say in the $600 range for a good one. A couple hundred more for version 2. Version 2 is far better lens than 1 is.

The other lens will take beautiful shots generally but not so much for a rodeo or barrel racing, IMHO, at least I would not use them. The ef-s 15-85mm is a nice general snapshot lens and would be good for all around shots.

Remember you must multiply the stated FL by 1.6 for a 7D. That makes the 100-400mil more like a 160-640mm tele. My friend uses a 300mm as his long lens. That converts to a 190mm lens on a 7D. I still think you need to look for one of the 70-200mm zooms.

Let me know what you decide.

Re: Help

wq9nsc — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 20:28:35 GMT

"Whoa! I bet it will. No power, no fun.

Let me know if/when you get the big Siggy"

Ernie,

The big Siggy will be a safe choice. My daughter walked into my home office over the weekend while I was looking at it online and told me if I decided I didn't like it she would be happy to take it to college with her in a couple of years 🙂 I suspect that she will strongly encourage me to upgrade to the 1DX 3 by then so that she can also have my 1DX.

I bought a large portable generator about 15 years ago and I had grown tired of the fun of getting up in the dark during a snowstorm to wheel it from the barn to the house (generally through a snowdrift), plugging it in and starting it, and finally throwing a transfer switch to have power. And I had to be careful of total power draw. When the power goes out, the new setup waits a few seconds to make sure it is staying out then starts, goes through its warmup routine, and then the load automatically switches to it and once commercial power comes on it switches back and goes through a cooldown and shut off routine. I should have done this years ago.

And photographing generators isn't as much fun as photographing athletes and installing them definitely isn't as much fun as photography!

Rodger

Re: Help

ebiggs1 — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 15:39:00 GMT

"... photographing generators isn't as much fun as photographing athletes..."

Oh, I don't know, that looks pretty cool. I love machinery. We just got a chance to see the Big Boy steam locomotive.

Of course I didn't take this shot and I don't like this side of the camera but they did get the name correct. It is a Big Boy.

Re: Help

ebiggs1 — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 15:42:15 GMT

"...she would be happy to take it to college with her in a couple of years..."

You might want to warn darling daughter, the Siggy is very heavy. As heavy as any of the big Canon "L" lenses. If it wasn't black you might think Canon made it. On a 1DX it is a hand full.

Re: Help

ebiggs1 — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 15:47:10 GMT

"I suspect that she will strongly encourage me to upgrade to the 1DX 3 by then so that she can also have my 1DX."

At my age and at this point in my life and career, I doubt I will buy a 1DX Mk III. However, I said the 1D Mk IV was the last camera I would ever buy, too. But Canon put the 1DX on sale too good to pass on so we'll see. A 1DX came home and I totally love it. There is no doubt it is the best camera I have ever used. I suspect the 2 and the 3 are just that much better.

Re: Help

wq9nsc — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:27:56 GMT

I would love to see the Big Boy in person. A friend sent me a link to a short video of it taken shortly after restoration. Big industrial machinery is impressive.

Good point on the weight of the Siggy but Anna is in pretty good shape from conditioning for soccer and the heavy lens won't bother her. She played an all day 3V3 soccer tournament Sunday without a sub, her team came in second and I am pretty sure her 21 goals were the highest individual player score 🙂

I really don't notice a lot of difference between the 1DX 1 and 2, I tend to treat the 2 as the primary camera at sports events because it is newer but I have zero complaints about the AF speed and accuracy and high ISO performance of the 1 which is very similar. They are both great cameras and the limiting factor is me and not the camera. I bought the 1DX 1 used as a second camera to use with the 1DX 2 at sports events and when I bought it there was a 1DX 2 available for about the same price but with a considerably higher shutter count and I decided for me that the 1 with very little use (under 20K exposures) was the better choice and I am happy I made that choice. The image below was taken Sunday after Anna stole a pass and was setting up for goal #20 in the final round. It was taken with the 1DX Mark 1 and an EF-135 F2 wide open at 1/640, ISO 8000 and with minimal noise reduction in post.

I hope that there is a 1DX 3 in your future. And like you I prefer being on the viewfinder side of the camera or as the medical doctors like to put it, on the correct end of the needle.

Rodger

Re: Help

ebiggs1 — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:31:34 GMT

"Good point on the weight of the Siggy but Anna is in pretty good shape ..."

After that shot, I will agree. She looks perfectly able to handle it. Perhaps a scholarship?

You know, I carried two 1 series all the time. One with a big tele and the other with a normal zoom or 50mm prime. I never even thought about complaining like I hear people do today. I just thought it was part of the game. Even today at 73, I still carry the same gear. Maybe a little slower I admit but it's there.

Re: Help

wq9nsc — Wed, 27 Nov 2019 01:56:14 GMT

Ernie,

Carrying that heavy gear keeps you in shape and it sure beats "mall walking" for exercise. You don't grow old until you stop doing the things you love to do.

Anna wants to play college soccer but she will likely be going on an academic rather than an athletic scholarship. She is a high school sophomore this year and has her first refereed academic journal pub coming out shortly from a project she did through Los Alamos and she presented some of the earlier research at an academic conference last month. Her high school has decided that in addition to whatever online university courses she wants to take, her remaining math credits will be awarded as a teaching assistant for calculus because she has gone well past anything they can teach her. She doesn't want to graduate early because she wants her full four years of soccer and she will also take over place kicking duties for the football team next Fall and I am very happy to see her being a "regular kid" and truly enjoying high school. The head football coach discovered her throwing ability this week while she was in conditioning class throwing long pass routes for the receivers but I told him not to get any ideas beyond kicking!

Her soccer ability (and my soccer photography ability) have both improved a lot since those early days when I was the team coach and also the team photographer when she played in the park district league. It was fun to work with the young kids and Anna graduated to middle school at the perfect time because I stopped coaching then and we had a perfect last season so it was a good time to retire from coaching. It is fun still working with those kids now that they are in high school and they still very much remember the fun we had when they were just learning the game. One of then told me at the soccer tournament she will always remember the "speech" I gave them the first time I coached them and I told them I would never get mad at them for making a mistake because I wanted them to push the envelope just to see how good they could be but I told them I would be angry if they didn't always play hard and try their best. I also told them that I wanted them to compete against the other team but more importantly I wanted them to compete against themselves to always try to play better than they had before no matter how skilled or unskilled their opponent. I am glad so many of "my kids" stayed with the sport.

Rodger

Re: Help

amfoto1 — Wed, 27 Nov 2019 03:04:18 GMT

@Gloflosmith123 wrote:
I found some second hand close to where I live ... he wants to see as a set with camera but will possibly sell separately... can I post a picture somehow of what he has ? Maybe I will see if I can copy and paste

Canon 7D DSLR

Speedlite 430EX II TTL Flash

Canon 100mm-400mm L (pro lens) telephoto

Canon EF-S 15mm-85mm lens

Canon EF-S 10mm-22mm wide angle lens

Complete with two batteries and external charger

Ok these are what he has ... is there anything in here that would work and how much should I offer

I shoot a lot of equestrian events of all types.

First, you need fast focusing lenses to complement the fast focusing 7D camera. Canon's own "USM" or "ultrasonic" are among the fastest to acquire and the best tracking and keeping up with moving subjects. I don't use, but hear the Sigma "HSM" and Tamron "USD" are similar.

All the lenses you list above are very good and all of them are USM.

However, none of them are large aperture tenses and, of the three, the 100-400mm would be the most useful. I use the "II" version of it frequently (mostly 300mm or less, except at exceptionaly large arenas). The 10-22mm is one of the best ultrawides available, but mine doesn't see very much use at equestrian events. The 15-85mm would be moderately usable... though probably mostly at the telephoto end of it's range. Both these lenses are f/4.5-5.6 though, so they will be most useful in "good light".... less usable indoors, particularly in dimmer arenas.

I switch to f/4 lenses and faster indoors. For handheld shooting, that's mostly 70-200mm f/4 along with 300mm f/4.

In the dimmest arenas, I switch to f/2.8 and faster lenses.... 70-200mm f/2.8, 135mm f/2, 85mm f/1.8, 300mm f/2.8.

The 100-400mm lenses are fairly large and hefty at around 3 to 3.5 lb. I'll hand hold them for a few hours of shooting, but for any longer than that (some big events are 8 to 10 or more hours of almost continuous shooting), I put mine on a tripod with a gimbal adapter. I pretty much use the 300mm f/2.8 (about 6 lb.) only on a tripod and gimbal. I also use that with a 500mm (about 8 lb.), but rarely need that long lens for equestrian events (occasionally for cross country or trail trials).

To get some idea of used lens values, check the used equipment dept. of B&H Photo, Adorama, KEH.com, MPB.com, Roberts Camera, Henry's Camera etc. Those retailers usually offer a store warranty for 90 days of longer.

Also look at "completed sales" on eBay. That gives you an idea of prices for private party sales, without any warranty.

The Canon 100-400mm lenses (two versions) are quite good, if large. The original version is a "push/pull" zoom, which folks either love or hate. It can be very good for fast action (birds in flight, air shows), but also may be more difficult to get a steady shot. The "II" version is truly superb, with even better image quality, fast focus and very good image stabilization. The "II" is on sale right now, new for $1800 (best price I've ever seen on it... usually around $2100). Used I see it for around $1500-$1600 in some stores. The original, push/pull version sells in stores for around $900.

To be honest, I rarely use above the 300mm focal length of that lens, shooting with it on 7D Mark IIs (I used a pair of original 7D for about five years previously... racked up about 300,000 shots with them). As a result, when using a crop sensor camera I think the Canon EF 70-300mm lenses are also worth consideration. These are also f/4-5.6 lenses, so would be best in outdoor situations with good light.

Canon offers two 70-300mm models currently and has offered a couple others in the recent past. The current off-white "L" version has the best image quality and is the only 70-300mm that can optionally be fitted with a tripod ring, costs about $1350 new (without the separately sold tripod ring), but has been around for a few years and can be pretty easily found used for considerably less. As an L-series, this lens is also more robust and better sealed for dust/weather resistance. It has IS (image stabilization) and USM focus drive.

EF 70-300mm "II" IS USM is the other model currently available new, very good, uses Canon's new "Nano USM" (quieter and smoother acting, but still just as fast). Image quality is good. It sells new for about $450. It's only been available for a year or so, and as a result you rarely see it used.

The earlier version of EF 70-300mm IS USM is also pretty good. Those are still available new for around $375 and can be found used for less.

A friend uses the much more compact 70-300mm IS USM "DO" or "diffractive optic" lens. That used to be even more expensive than the L, but sells for less used. It's discontinued, but the image quality always impressed me and it's quite compact (although not lighter weight than some of the other models).

The EF 70-300mm "L" weighs approx. 2.3 lb. The other three are around 1.5 lb. The L-series lenses (incl. the 100-400s above) come with lens hood.... while the other three do not (sold separately, but might be incl. with a used lens).

Several previous responses have mentioned the 70-200s and, yes, they are quite useful. My most used is the EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM... simply because it's about 1//2 the weight and 1/3 smaller than the f/2.8 version. However, in lower light conditions, the f/2.8 versions are more likely to be needed. Either version of the EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS USM "II" or "III" is a superb lenses, but weigh in about 3.3 lb. The EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM first version and "II" are excellent too, and just a tad over 1.5 lb. each (they come without tripod ring though, adding that also adds a couple ounces). I haven't compared them, but I hear the 70-200mm f/4L IS "II" is a noticeable upgrade from the original (which I've always found to be excellent).

EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM is another lens I use frequently for equestrian events. I especially like the focal length range on crop cameras, although it's a full frame capable lens. A lighter wieght, much less expensive "good light" alternative is the discontinued EF 28-135mm IS USM. It's a lens dating back to the film days, but is quite good for sports action (it's a little soft at 135mm, but improves if stopped down). A more modern, current alternative is the EF-S 18-135mm IS USM (there have been four versions of 18-135mm... the latest "USM" has AF performance up to the task of sports photography).

EF 300mm f/4L IS USM on EOS 7D...

EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM on EOS 7D...

EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM on EOS 7D...

EF 100-400mm L IS USM "II" on EOS 7D Mark II...

EF 70-200mm f/4L IS USM on EOS 7D...

EF 28-135mm IS USM on EOS 7D...

EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM on EOS 7D Mark II...

EF 135mm f/2L USM on EOS 7D....

It wouldn't hurt to have a second camera. I usually shoot with two... with different lenses set up on them, for rapid switches. Another advantage is fewer lens changes in DUSTY environments....

When the action is fast and furious, I prefer to use two identical cameras (usually with all the same settings... when I change one, I change both). Currently that's a pair of 7D Mark II. In the past it was a pair of 7D. Before that I had three 50D, and a pair of 30D. I tried using dissimilar models and even slight differences sometimes causes mixups during fast shooting and quick swaps.

Finally, you mention a flash... I rarely use one for equestrian events. Amateur riders get concerned about it, even though horses almost always ignore it. Another problem, flash slows down shooting and makes high speed bursts very limited or impossible. When I use it, I actually use flash just the opposite of what you might think... mostly in mid day as fill, to open up shadows. I never use "full" flash, rarely use it early or late in the day or indoors. The portrait shot with the 24-70mm lens above was strongly backlit and could have used some fill flash. However, a flash can come in handy for many things. I've used them at awards dinners and such, too. The 430EX is a nice compromise of power and size. I use 550EX and 580EX models, which have one feature the 430EX lack... The 550EX/580EX can be used with a supplementaty battery pack. That helps them recycle a lot faster, as well as allowing a lot more flash exposures before fresh batteries are needed.

Hope this helps!

***********

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif., USA
"Walk softly and carry a big lens."
GEAR: 5DII, 7DII (x2), 7D(x2) some other cameras, various lenses & accessories
FLICKR & ZENFOLIO

Re: Help

ebiggs1 — Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:50:35 GMT

"I am glad so many of "my kids" stayed with the sport."

All I can say is enjoy it while you can. It passes quickly.