topic Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

Bikemike66 — Fri, 03 Apr 2015 16:31:31 GMT

Joined this community to ask this question!

I have already perused the "upgrading" thread by the bird/nature photographer, and the "new equipment priority" by the swim meet photographer, and gained some knowledge from both. Selfishly, I want to ask my own questions though.

I find myself taking a lot of pictures at my kids' sporting events. In a well lit hockey arena, I can often get some good shots, but just as often I am limited by lighting, and the f- stop of my lens when zoomed in (75-200 4.0-5.6). So my current choices seem to be increased noise with higher ISO, blurred shots, or only getting a few good shots.

I have a limited budget (shouldn't really spend the $$, but probably will - definitely under 1000). With a 7 year old camera (digic III processor), I am not sure that getting a better lens with larger opening at zoom is necessarily the best idea.

I have been researching the DIGIC processors, and it makes it sound like there would be significant improvement from moving to a T3i (DIGIC IV ) alone, but that there is a bigger difference between the IV and V, and that I should possibly be looking at the T5i, especially if I cn get it used or on clearance when the 6i comes out.

Although I would love a new lens too, I am hoping that a faster processor and higher MP (18 vs. 12.2) might be a good investment.

Am I correct in my assumption that the processor and its software alone could be a significant improvement over my current camera ( which I would keep, probably have the 28-70 on there, with my telephoto on the new one- not switching lenses constantly would be a nice bonus too)

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

ebiggs1 — Fri, 03 Apr 2015 21:19:24 GMT

A better lens is always the correct answer.

But a great lens will not be great on a poor camera. A poor camera will certainly compromise the best lens in the world, too.

To be brutally frank, what you have is not real "great". So upgrading any of it or both is going to make a big deal. It is not the number of mega-pickles that makes the difference, persay. A 18MP sensor made 7 years ago will not be as good as a 18MP made in 2015. Things just get better.

Being limited to a grand, I woul still opt for a better lens. Perhaps the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM. Notice how it is a constant f2.8 aperture? But it is not a cheap lens at about $900 bucks.

The Rebel T5i runs around $600. So if you did decide to get this pretty nice combo it would be well over a thousand at $1500.

Maybe get one at a time?

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

ScottyP — Fri, 03 Apr 2015 22:19:52 GMT

Hi, Mike.

If I were going to get a camera body with the stated budget I'd wait a month and get the T6i, which will sport 19 all cross type focus points. You could also spend the whole $1000 and get a 70d which will allow you to do autofocus micro adjustment.

Your body is old, but your lens is definitely not for low light. I think a brighter lens would do you more good than a body.

An 85mm f/1.8 is 3 stops faster than your lens at the same focal length.. That would be like letting you shoot at ISO 400 compared to ISO 3200 in the same conditions, which is HUGE. You can get one for $375 or $400.

You could pair the T6i with the 85 f/1.8 for about $1,100 if you shop around.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

TCampbell — Sat, 04 Apr 2015 01:01:41 GMT

ebiggs and scotty are giving you solid advice. I've seen people pick nits over the "best" camera ... agonizing over details like one camera's ISO performance outperforming another by a fraction of a stop. Meanwhile... they're using lenses which are resulting in the loss of a full 2 or 3 stops of light. Having good "glass" is a huge advantage.

Most professional photographers are not making incomes that allow them to spend without consideration of the price tag. And yet... these same pros will pick lenses that cost thousands of dollars. It's not because they want to... not becuase they have a cash-flow that allows them to buy anything without having to check the price tag first... they buy the lens because it REALLY makes a difference in their work.

When Canon introduced the T2i body, they also came out with a brand new 18MP sensor and a nice little bump in ISO performance. But that same sensor was then used in the T3i, T4i, and T5i (and also the 60D and 7D). The T6i, 70D, and 7D II all have newer sensors... but they're all in a higher price category.

You could buy a refurbished or used T3i, T4i, or T5i and gain at least a full stop (maybe even a little more) of higher ISO with lower noise... but it sounds like you need more than just an extra stop. A lens can provide at least 2 full stops (maybe more.) A lens and body combined would get you at least 3 full stops (maybe 3.5). 3 stops is 8x more light -- so that's fairly significant.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

Bikemike66 — Sat, 04 Apr 2015 17:02:11 GMT

Thanks to all three of you.

I am leaning towards getting the T5i, as with the T6i coming out, it is now a good deal, and represents a significant improvement over my 450D. I have located a used one with shutter count in the hundreds for around 500 including the stock 18-55 (which I would like, as I replaced my broken one with a 28-70)

450D T5i

Digic3 DIGIC 5

12.2 mp 18

3.5 fps 5.0 fps

ISO 1600 ISO 25600

From what I read the DIGIC 5 was a much bigger improvement over the 4 than the 4 was over the 3, so I am also hoping for overall improved quality and performance, not just indoors. Video, and articulating touch screen are also features that I didn't have before.

The ISO is the interesting one..allowing you to shoot at up to 25600 instead of 1600 implies to me that CANON believes that they have improved by 4 stops, which I assume most of you don't believe is the case. The way I see it, I had enough light on my current camera at 1600, I just didn't like the quality...but if I shot at 1600 or 3200 on a camera that went to 25600, I'd be 3-4 stops below the max ISO.

I did read another thread and after following a link, took some time looking at photos taken at high ISO.

Note: I have also found a T3i that I could probably offer under 350 for, but I think I am leaning towards the T5i.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

TCampbell — Sat, 04 Apr 2015 17:32:53 GMT

The ISO is improved... but you're wise to inspect images at high ISO and evaluate what you think of the noise.

As you increase ISO, you also increase noise. Better chips can keep those noise levels down. But manufacturers are allowing us to set ISO levels that result in more noise than previously. In other words, while you can set ISO 25600, you probably will not be happy with the noise... even at 12800. You might be "ok" with the noise at 6400.

Noise tends to be stronger in darker areas of the image (shadow, etc.) and much weaker (or nearly non-existent) in the highlight areas of the image. When you use de-noising algorithms, they basically take each pixel and inspect that pixel's value as compared to all the surrounding pixels. If you slightly "average" each pixel to it's surroundings, you naturally bring down the noise... but you also have the side-effect of softening the whole image (so there is no free lunch.)

Some photo editors allow you to selectively apply an effect -- so you can "brush in" noise reduction only in the shadow areas and leave the highlights alone. I use a program called Noiseware Pro which allows you to "tune" the noise levels and aggressiveness of the software. I can set how aggressive I want it to be in the shadows vs. midtones vs. highlights, etc. I can also tell it if I've mostly got a problem with "chroma" noise vs. "luma" noise, etc. This allows me to knock back the noise in the worst places, but avoid softening the highlight details (where there wasn't much noise to begin with.)

I never try to eliminate all noise (otherwise your subjects have skin that looks like plastic.)

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

Bikemike66 — Sat, 04 Apr 2015 18:02:25 GMT

Thanks Tim.

@TCampbell wrote:
... manufacturers are allowing us to set ISO levels that result in more noise than previously. In other words, while you can set ISO 25600, you probably will not be happy with the noise... even at 12800. You might be "ok" with the noise at 6400.

.

This is what I suspected with the huge increase in ISO. Also, I was looking through some old shots and realized that I am looking for 3-4 stops in a gym shooting basketball, but in a hockey arena, I am often only 1-2 stops away from ideal (found some shots I took in action mode, where the camera chose 7.1, 1/250 and 1600, and realized that I could try going with 400 or 800 and AV mode with my current set-up). My kids play WAY more hockey than basketball, fwiw.

I think with all my options that the T5i is still a good idea. As ebiggs said, "A 18MP sensor made 7 years ago will not be as good as a 18MP made in 2015. Things just get better"

That statement rings true to me. I am also a cyclist, and we know that components also improve to the point where the current midrange 105 is probably better than 5-6 year old top of the line Dura Ace.

I have Aftershot Pro 2.0, but haven't really used it much yet, and have only shot in RAW a few times (never inside iirc), but maybe that could also be part of the solution.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

RobertTheFat — Sat, 04 Apr 2015 20:36:32 GMT

@Bikemike66 wrote:

I think with all my options that the T5i is still a good idea. As ebiggs said, "A 18MP sensor made 7 years ago will not be as good as a 18MP made in 2015. Things just get better"

A couple of points. Your XSi doesn't have an 18mp sensor made 7 years ago. It has a 12.2mp sensor. Also, I think the T3i and the T5i have the same (18mp) sensor. AFAIK, the T6i and T6s are the first Rebels since the T2i to get a new sensor.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

Bikemike66 — Sat, 04 Apr 2015 21:33:32 GMT

Right, even better. A new 18 MP sensor over a 7 year old 12.2 one.

I have committed to a Kijiji sale for tomorrow. $500 Cdn for a gently used T5i including lens (18-55), bag and a 64gb SD card.

This setup goes for 650 plus tax new right now around here.

I will start saving for a lens now ( probably still want a zoom for sports)

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

ScottyP — Sun, 05 Apr 2015 01:32:57 GMT

If you are shooting indoor sports you need a bright wide aperture lens. The widest aperture zoom will be an f/2.8 lens. (The Unique Sigma 18-35 f/1.8 is too short for sports).

That may do indoors, or you may wish you had a little more aperture to keep the ISO down another stop, as with a prime like 85 f/1.8. I really think you will begin finding fault with a lot of shots at ISO1600 on a crop, and you probably won't like them much at all at ISO 3200 and above. It is not just grain, but also lack of fine detail, which is made even worse when you apply noise reduction to lessen the grain, which takes even more detail out.

A good 2.8 zoom in a sports range will be some sort of 70-200 f/2.8. The Canon ones are big whites and they are not cheap. The IS MK2 version is $1800 or more, but it is a magnificent lens. A Canon prime at 85mm will be $369.00.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

Bikemike66 — Sun, 05 Apr 2015 02:16:50 GMT

I have to balance cost with results, obviously. This is still just a hobby after all. I know the "big whites", I've seen the pros with them and been envious. I suppose an 85 mm 2.8 is an option, but aside from the odd basketball game, i mostly shoot hockey ( because that's what my kids play) and arenas are different. There is a little more light and some of the shots are quite a ways away. I guess I'll see how the new set-up works for me and go from there. Guess I could shoot at 85 on my zoom for a game and see how many shots I either feel I miss, or need to be cropped too much.

I am also hoping for better autofocus with the new camera, although I am not sure if it is that much improved in that regard.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

ScottyP — Sun, 05 Apr 2015 06:36:24 GMT

The better autofocus would definitely come in with the T6i. They jumped the autofocus to 19 points, and they are all cross-type. A quantum leap for the Rebel line for sure.

As for a zoom lens that will also be bright enough, you have a problem if you are on a budget. Fast motion in indoor light is the biggest challenge in photography, as you need a fast shutter to freeze the movement, but you don't have the luxury of daytime sun to fuel your shutter.
This is exactly where things can get very expensive. Wide aperture on a zoom is hard to do, and it is really expensive. This is why I'd urge you to consider saving money and also getting a brighter lens, and looking at a reasonably priced prime lens with a really wide aperture. The 85mm is f/1.8, not f/2.8, so the light difference is over 2x.

They talk about "zooming with your feet" on a prime lens. Perhaps for the indoor hockey you could "zoom with your seat" and arrive early enough to grab a good close seat. 85mm on a crop is 136 equivalent.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

ebiggs1 — Sun, 05 Apr 2015 13:50:57 GMT

"I have committed to a Kijiji sale for tomorrow. $500 Cdn for a gently used T5i including lens (18-55), bag and a 64gb SD card."

IMHO, $500 is top dollar for this outfit. Especially for the lens, that is included, isn't going to be really what you want. Just so you know.

A bag and an oversized SD card do not increase the value of a use camera. IMHO, of course.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

Bikemike66 — Sun, 05 Apr 2015 16:58:29 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
"I have committed to a Kijiji sale for tomorrow. $500 Cdn for a gently used T5i including lens (18-55), bag and a 64gb SD card."

IMHO, $500 is top dollar for this outfit. Especially for the lens, that is included, isn't going to be really what you want. Just so you know.

A bag and an oversized SD card do not increase the value of a use camera. IMHO, of course.

Thanks ebiggs. Not sure where you are, but I haven't seen it new for anything less than 650 plus tax (13%) here in Canada (750 more typically) and this is about as good a used price as I have seen (although I just posted here a few days ago, I have been thinking about a better camera for many months and therefore watching the new ads and the used on kijiji). You're probably right though...when the T6i comes out, I could probably do even better.

In any case, I have committed to buying it, assuming it IS in the condition claimed (virtually new). Just as an aside...there is no easy way to confirm the shutter count is there? The seller claims just a few hundred.

I know the lens isn't what I need for indoor sports, but it is a lens that I will use (I guess I never really made it clear that indoor action shots are just one aspect of my hobby) as I currently have a 28-70 and I miss the wider angle between 18 and 28 fairly frequently (my original 18-55 stopped working bout a year ago). I'll continue to use the 70-200 I have for now.

I wish I could afford the T6i plus an L series lens, or for that matter a 70D, or.....

Or maybe I could, if I didn't simultaneously want a new desktop for video editing (I actually probably take more video than photos).

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

Bikemike66 — Sun, 05 Apr 2015 17:10:45 GMT

@ScottyP wrote:
The better autofocus would definitely come in with the T6i. They jumped the autofocus to 19 points, and they are all cross-type. A quantum leap for the Rebel line for sure.

As for a zoom lens that will also be bright enough, you have a problem if you are on a budget. Fast motion in indoor light is the biggest challenge in photography, as you need a fast shutter to freeze the movement, but you don't have the luxury of daytime sun to fuel your shutter.
This is exactly where things can get very expensive. Wide aperture on a zoom is hard to do, and it is really expensive. This is why I'd urge you to consider saving money and also getting a brighter lens, and looking at a reasonably priced prime lens with a really wide aperture. The 85mm is f/1.8, not f/2.8, so the light difference is over 2x.

They talk about "zooming with your feet" on a prime lens. Perhaps for the indoor hockey you could "zoom with your seat" and arrive early enough to grab a good close seat. 85mm on a crop is 136 equivalent.

Yeah...I know...I wish a T6i was in my budget. That 19 point focus seems big...especially shooting through arena plexiglass..I wonder if it would help there. I miss some shots because of that (although once I have AF for a specific spot on the rink, I sometimes switch to MF.

wrt to the prime lens and zooming with my feet...no need to get there early, it's pretty easy to stand wherever I want..the bigger challenge is that the action can be right in front of the glass, or 200 feet away. Obviously some shots get missed. I will look into it though...I may try leaving my zoom at 85 and shooting an upcoming tryout skate, just to get a sense of how much I can get, and what it would be like to shoot without the zoom (keeping in mind the f1.8, which would let me crop more later if I was really using a prime).

I do get the premise that the lens is more important than the body, but the current 450D body is 7 years old, DIGIC 3, 12.2, well used...I really couldn't see putting an L-series lens or 85mm/1.8 on that.

Thanks for all the well-thought advie everyone.

Mike

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

ebiggs1 — Sun, 05 Apr 2015 21:14:13 GMT

"Not sure where you are, but I haven't seen it new for anything less than 650 plus tax (13%) here in Canada (750 more typically) and this is about as good a used price as I have seen (although I just posted here a few days ago,"

I am in Kansas, USA. Are you in Canada? The T5i is trending here for $460. The T5i is availible from Canon in the refurb store with lens for $509. And that is the STM verson lens. A must. That camera gets a full Canon warranty plus they will take your old camera in on trade with the loyality offer. For a few more bucks off the price.

You are right. The T5i is going to lose 'used' value when the T6i hits the stores. Don't know how all this converts to Canada dollars so I may be all wet. I usually am so I am used to it.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

ebiggs1 — Sun, 05 Apr 2015 21:18:00 GMT

Oh, BTW, just thought, not to disagree with Scotty, too much, but I do. The 85mm f1.8 would be a very poor choice for you. IMHO, of course, don't waste your money. The Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens is the lens you want.

Sell the one you are getting with the T5i deal when you can and buy that lens instead.

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

ScottyP — Sun, 05 Apr 2015 22:10:06 GMT

Here is a good overview of lens choices for indoor sports. It separates the zooms from the primes and gives specific lens suggestions.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Canon-Lenses/Canon-Indoor-Sports-Lens.aspx

Re: Upgrading from a 450 XSi - looking at all my options

Bikemike66 — Sun, 12 Apr 2015 21:42:05 GMT

Thought I'd give a quick update.

I did buy the T5i used for $500 (Cdn). I put the 18-55 lens on my 450D and put my 75-300 4-5.6 on the T5i. It is very nice to not have to switch lenses...makes me feel like a pro to have 2 cameras each with their own lens, lol.

I have taken a few hundred shots with the new camera: a few at family Easter egg hunt, many more at the local dog park (another favourite locale for my photography, along with kids' sports), and...today..at the arena, as my daughter had a pre tryout skate.

Although it is hard to tell because the lighting in all arenas is different, I definitely noticed a difference in the shutter speeds I was able to use at different ISO settings. For the most part I shot at 800, and tried P mode, getting shutter speeds of 1/250. I also tried sport mode and the camera suggested an ISO of 6400 (an option I obviously didn't have on the 450D).

I will have to compare to some of the better shots I did get this season with the old camera, but overall I am happy with the new one.