topic Re: Shutter Count in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Shutter Count

Joel4JC — Tue, 29 Jan 2019 07:03:51 GMT

I am buying a used 5D Mark III and I have 30 days to try it out for a full refund. All the post on this site that I've found referring to shutter count, the solution says PM to the person asking the question. How do I find the solution? How can I check the shutter count on a 5D Mark III?

Thanks in advance,

Joel

Re: Shutter Count

MikeSowsun — Tue, 29 Jan 2019 19:12:31 GMT

You can Google search it and there will be a few results that come up. Most will charge about $5 to use their program.

One that I have used is called Eosmsg. It worked on both my 5D Mk III and 80D.

Re: Shutter Count

Joel4JC — Tue, 29 Jan 2019 20:30:30 GMT

Thanks Mike for the quick response. Last night I downloaded Free Shutter Count ($7) which runs on Windows 10 and it seemed to work. I say seemed to work because I have no way of validating the results without taking it to Canon to get their official count. However, I do verify that the image file names are sequentially numbered from 1, on the day I purchased the camera new, to the current value. Should the camea have a numbering limitation and recycles, say at 9,999, 99,999, etc, I use a bulk rename tool to insert the proper leading number (1, 2, 3, etc). That being said, the shutter count value returned by Free Shutter Count was within 200 of my image numbering on two of my cameras (one camera was closer than the other). I attribute the count discrepancy to perhaps video taking and/or actuation done at the Canon service center during a tune up, and/or manufacturing quality testing. Thanks again for your response.

Joel

Re: Shutter Count

ebiggs1 — Wed, 30 Jan 2019 15:08:48 GMT

Canon is the only way to get a true accurate count. I believe shutter count is of little to no value anyway. A better solution but it will cost a bit more is to have Canon do a C&C on the camera and ask for a shutter count (no extra charge) if you must. Of course this is in case you actually buy the camera because Canon will look at everything inside the camera not just the shutter.

Consider this you could buy a camera with 100 clicks on the shutter, great you say, but it was used exclusively shooting half videos. Or, you could have a camera with 10,000 clicks which was used in a studio a click at a time set at 1/60.

Re: Shutter Count

Joel4JC — Wed, 30 Jan 2019 15:45:49 GMT

ebiggs1, I agree that the only way to get a true accurate count is via Canon Service. However I disagree that the "shutter count is of little to no value anyway".

Consider your buying a used camera which appears to be excellent condition and rarely used, you pay fair market value for a camera that was rarely usedt, it fails two weeks later after one photo shoot. You take it in to Canon service center and find out it has 300,000 shutter clicks and needs a new shutter, remember you paid fair market value, now you have to pay to have the shutter replaced, you overpaid for the used camera.

I know a million scenarios where this won't hold up, yet there are another million scenarios where it does hold up. For me, it is a peace of mind to know I've the best research I can before purchasing a used camera, and I have strong idea of what I am getting into.

It's like buying a used car that has been parked in a garage everyday and washed weekly and waxed fregquently. The outside looks emaculate. You check the odometer reading, and find out it has 200,000 miles on it. Now, the odometer may not be accurate either because it could have been broke for over a year (yes, I had a friend who took over a year to get the odometer fixed, while driving over 100 miles a day to and from work).

Again a million scenarios both ways. For me it is a peace of mind and I just like knowing.

Re: Shutter Count

ebiggs1 — Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:13:48 GMT

"For me it is a peace of mind and I just like knowing."

Joel if it floats your boat go for it. No harm, no foul. However, you have a false sense of trust in shutter count numbers. You car analogy is a good one but it requires you know the history of the car/camera to be of any real help. Suppose you had two identical Crown Vics on a car lot. Both had 100 000 miles on it. Both look good which do you pick? Well, one car was normally driven to Denver from KC on I70 at normal speeds. The other was a police car which sit for hours and hours idling. They both show 100,000 miles so which has the least life taken out of it? Shutter count is the same unless you know the history of the camera it is of little to no value. This makes the C&C by Canon a much more worthwhile thing to get.

Remember a shutter can fail and they do in 100, 1000, 100,000 or one million clicks

"... you pay fair market value for a camera that was rarely usedt, it fails two weeks later after one photo shoot." OK lets consider this scenario. Yeah, a bummer for sure! But is it? A new shutter is about $300. You get it installed and guess what? You have virtually a new camera. The reverse is, the shutter never fails and you live happily ever after. Either way.

Re: Shutter Count

ebiggs1 — Wed, 30 Jan 2019 16:20:18 GMT

"This makes the C&C by Canon a much more worthwhile thing to get."

Why is this a better idea? Because the shutter is just one thing that can fail. Canon will test, check and adjust the entire camera not just the shutter for proper operation. When you get it back, it will look and operate like a new camera.

Re: Shutter Count

Joel4JC — Wed, 30 Jan 2019 22:19:17 GMT

ebiggs1 I agree with your scenarios, and as I said, there are a million different scenarios on both sides of the debate.

For me, I am not using the shutter count to make a decision between two cameras with high shutter counts, my point is I am trying to avoid buying the used camera with a high shutter count. For me I only purchase used cameras with under 20k clicks.

The shutter count report is no guarantee that I am getting a better camera, however, the probability is more in my favor. The lower the shutter count the less likely I'll need the C&C by Canon done, at least according to the statistics. Again no gurantee, just a higher probability. There are always exceptions, but my experience in buying used cameras with low shutter counts has not failed me yet.

Unfortunately, for some, they can't afford the cost of a used camera and the extra $300 for a new shutter, Some are stretching their budgets just to get the camera. The cost of a new shutter is just not in their budget. It is a sad thing to save your money to get a good used camera and then have something fail where you can't use it, and you have no money in the budget to get it fixed. That hurts. Again no guarantee, just a higher probability of success with the lower shutter count camera.

I'm not disgreeing with any of your scenarios, I just find value in the shutter count report when buying a used camera.

Re: Shutter Count

Joel4JC — Thu, 31 Jan 2019 06:09:13 GMT

Better Shutter Count Software - Windows 10.

The problem I found with using the Free Shutter Count program is that it requires a USB driver change which it will install with your permission. After installing the driver the program worked fine, however when I tried to connect to my camera with another piece of software, it did not detect the camera. Using the Free Shutter Count program, I uninstalled the USB driver it installed. Now the other software was able to connect to the camera with the built-in Windows 10 drivers.

This caused me to search for another Shutter Count software. I found Canon EOS Digital Info, and it is FREE! It will connect to the camera using the native Windows 10 USB drivers. It also has a much better User Interface, as well as, displaying more information, including the serial number in a readable format.

The shutter count from both of these programs were identical, as it expected it to be, since they both use Canon's SDK to access the camera.

Re: Shutter Count

ebiggs1 — Thu, 31 Jan 2019 15:38:39 GMT

"Some are stretching their budgets just to get the camera."

Been there, done that. Believe me. I just want you to realize what shutter count actually means. If it is your top priority and it makes you feel better about your purchase by all means use it. You do know the shutter is not the number one cause of early camera failure? It is dropped cameras. Second is wet, getting moisture inside the camera. Shutter count tells you neither. That is one reason why I say you need to know the history of the camera you are buying used. If the camera was used extensively for videos it is going to have a very low shutter clicks and that would be misleading. There is more, much more, to a camera than the shutter. Know the history, Joel.

I have a friend who was in the business as long as I was. He bought only used 1 series camera. Most of them from KEH. He only bought KEH's "ugly" or "bargain" bodies. They all had a minimum of 100,000+ clicks on them. He run a successful career.

Re: Shutter Count

jrhoffman75 — Thu, 31 Jan 2019 16:31:26 GMT

1. I agree that the only way to get a true accurate count is via Canon Service.

2. The shutter count from both of these programs were identical, as it expected it to be, since they both use Canon's SDK to access the camera.

Doesn't 2 contradict 1?

Re: Shutter Count

Joel4JC — Thu, 31 Jan 2019 17:49:57 GMT

@jrhoffman75 wrote:
1. I agree that the only way to get a true accurate count is via Canon Service.

2. The shutter count from both of these programs were identical, as it expected it to be, since they both use Canon's SDK to access the camera.

Doesn't 2 contradict 1?

No 2 does not contradict 1, as a software developer myself, SDKs are not the holy grail for 100% accuracy. It would depend on what Canon decided to include in the SDK. There may be some undocumented features that the developer is unaware of that may give a more accurate result. Or Canon may not have included some features that would yield a more accurate result. SDKs have been know to have bugs 🙂 Then there is the question, "does Canon use the same SDK to retrieve the shutter count or some other method?"

However, I plan on finding out myself by:

1. Getting a copy of the Canon SDK and take a look under the hood.

2. Take one of my cameras into Canon Service and get a shutter count and then compare it to the programs I've mentioned earlier. If there is a discrepancy, then I'll have dive a litte deeper into the SDK to see why.

Re: Shutter Count

jrhoffman75 — Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:00:15 GMT

I will be interested in your findings. I’ve done it with four different model cameras and two different software products and results were exact.

Re: Shutter Count

Joel4JC — Thu, 31 Jan 2019 18:27:36 GMT

"You do know the shutter is not the number one cause of early camera failure? It is dropped cameras. Second is wet, getting moisture inside the camera. Shutter count tells you neither. That is one reason why I say you need to know the history of the camera you are buying used. "

ebiggs1, if you have the luxury or great fortune of knowing the history of the camera, then I agree with you 100%. Now, let's go back to my used car example. How many used car buyers have the luxury of knowing the actual history of the car they are buying, especially if they are buying it from a dealer. I believe you would much rather purchase the car with the lower mileage versas the high mileage car when you know nothing about the history of the car. There is real value in knowing the odometer reading on a car, that's why by law, the odometer reading has to be disclosed and you attest to its mileage, for both used and new cars. No guarantees, but the probability of the lower mileage car having less problems and lasting longer is greater.

The only way I am going to know the history of a used camera is if the person selling me the camera is 100% honest about it's use. If the person selling the camera is not being honest, I'll have no way of knowing if it has been dropped, wet or any other harmful experience.

Furthermore, I believe the shutter count would be of more value when buying a Rebel, 60D, 70D, or 80D class camera. Because the impact of 50,000 clicks on one of these is way different than the impact of 50,000 clicks on a 5D or 1D series camera.

Now, if you are selling a camera and you can show the shutter count is low, you will get a higher price for the camera. I know some professionals photographers and prosumers have heart burn with buying cameras on eBay, however a ton of peope do. So, using eBay as an example, just two days ago, a 5D Mark III with an advertised shutter count of 4111, went for $1775.00, while yesterday a 5D Mark III without a shutter count being shown, went for $890. Looking at past sells on eBay the average price of a 5D Mark III is in around $1100 and a lot of them show the shutter count. So for the seller in this case, there was real value in knowing the shutter count and advertising it with the camera.

ebiggs1 all I am saying, is that there is a real value in knowing the shutter count, at least for me.

Re: Shutter Count

ebiggs1 — Thu, 31 Jan 2019 21:46:51 GMT

"I am saying, is that there is a real value in knowing the shutter count..."

Joel if it makes you feel more secure, then I am all in for you. Just remember it isn't a tell all. In your car analogy what if the two cars with very low mileage spent most, 90%, of that time idling? The other got the same number of miles but by being driven? Obiviously the second example is the one you want. But you do not know that. This is the point I want you to understand when you think one camera is better than the other because of the shutter count.

Re: Shutter Count

Peter — Fri, 01 Feb 2019 00:38:05 GMT

Canon Japan and Magic Lantern give the same shutter count from 6D and 7D.
Tornado EOS give the same shutter count as Magic Lantern.

On 5D II there is a firmware bug with the shutter count. Something about to make it powerless and it doesn't register the last batch of shutter count.

Re: Shutter Count

MikeSowsun — Fri, 01 Feb 2019 02:36:22 GMT

Magic Lantern unlocks the actual shutter count and also includes LiveView actuations

19,529 Total (rounded up to 20K) = 16497 photo actuations + 3032 Liveview actuations

NEW SHUTTER COUNT AND REFLECTOR

areejbashir — Sat, 27 Mar 2021 17:04:59 GMT

I'm looking to purchase a used canon 5d mark IV with a new instuled Shutter Count and reflector installed. Is this a good idea? Can i trust the camera will function fine?
The installment has been done by Canon and proof of the installment is availabe.

Please advice. thank you very much

Re: NEW SHUTTER COUNT AND REFLECTOR

ebiggs1 — Sun, 28 Mar 2021 14:58:06 GMT

If you have a receipt from Canon, not a Canon dealer, but actually from Canon, I would have no objection to buying it. Of course this should be reflected in the price as the rest of the camera is as old as it was before the service was done.

Canon not only replaces parts that are faulty but they do a complete service check for OE operation before they return it.

That is why it has to be Canon that did the work and not some Canon dealer.