topic Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

mindawoo — Thu, 29 Nov 2018 19:14:42 GMT

I currently using a t2i Canon 18 mp crop sensor camera, According to Canon, when EF-S lenses are used on the EOS R camera the camera "will automatically produce cropped 11.6-megapixel images that match the smaller image circle of EF-S optics." So a 30mp camera effectively is now 11.6mp, much less than what I have with my current set up. I am looking to move to full frame so the EOS R seemed to be the way to go until I hit this stumbling block. I can't afford to buy both the camera and new lenses at the same time but plan to upgrade lenses slowly as budget permits. Is this something I should be concerned about or will having a better sensor and newer technologies make up for the loss in megapixels?

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

diverhank — Thu, 29 Nov 2018 19:36:57 GMT

Everyone will have to cross this bridge sooner or later - when switching to full frame you have to abandon the EF-S lenses. At least the EOS-R gives you a choice (less optimum, granted).

If budget is tight, I'd suggest getting a EF 50mm f/1.8 STM lens for starter. This $125 gem is a real bargain with quality way surpasses its modest price. This FL - 50mm - is quite well suited for a full frame camera.

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

CarlG — Wed, 23 Jan 2019 18:27:25 GMT

Hi!,

I did a little poking around and it appears the EOS R is the only full frame DSLR that can utlize the EF-S lens although at a loss of pixels. I have the EOS-R but I also have an 80D both cameras can utlize either or (The EOS R with Adapter). That being said when I started with crop sensor cameras I also bought EF L Glass along the way (My t3i, T6i and 80D all fit EF-s or EF lenses) knowing I would be moving to full frame eventually. As long as you keep an APS-C camera as a second body the EOS R in my humble opinion is the next generation of full frame cameras. At least your lenses will work on it.

Been shotting Canon since 1976

CarlG

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

ebiggs1 — Thu, 24 Jan 2019 15:37:52 GMT

The future is mirrorless. That is a fact. WHy build a complicated expensive shutter mech if you don;t have to?

It just isn't today. "Been shotting Canon since 1976" You and I might not make the mirrorless take over!

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

CarlG — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 03:16:18 GMT

Not today yes. But I wanted in so I dove in head first. I remember my switch from 35mm to digital....I spit and cussed and fumed right up until I bought my first DSLR in 2013....yep took me that long.... I used an EOS 630 and my old AV-1 right up to 2013....and I never looked back. Still have MY AV-1. Mom gave me that when I was 15, what a wonderful little Camera and it still operates flawlessly. So it's a keeper. Don't get me wrong I own several Canon Digital Point and Shoots over the years that were OK during my change over decision. Once they got "good enough" I made the decision to switch.

Took me months to re-learn EVERYTHING. I expect about the same learning curve with the EOS R. I didn't buy it for Video so none of that matters to me. What I have found is the EOS R with prime lenses is unmatched in tack sharp photos. I have a 24-105 USM II L that I may actually have a lens issue or operator error issue. Still working with that. Not that big of a deal but it is sometime just too soft. I am keeping the 80D and I thought It was the APS C that kept that same lens from being sharp. I micro-adjusted the fool out of it and never could get it right on the 80D. I may send it into CS and see if they can do something with it. But I Want to do a side by side comparison on different bodies first.

But I digress, this time I wanted in early so I could learn the nuances of Mirrorless vs Pentaprism. When I retire from my current occupation I want to go full time pro. Right now I just shoot small weddings and a lot of PeeWee Football...now that's fun and funny. I've also done some landscape for a few people that paid well.

Keep shooting!

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

ebiggs1 — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:35:06 GMT

" So a 30mp camera effectively is now 11.6mp, much less than what I have with my current set up."

Actually you are only mathematically correct but not photographic. The pixel density is still exactly the same. The resulting photo will exhibit the same IQ.

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

ebiggs1 — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:42:28 GMT

" I micro-adjusted the fool out of it and never could get it right on the 80D."

You do know that focus adjustment does not make a lens any sharper. Not at all. It simply moves the critical focus point forward or backward. Once a lens is made it will never be or get any sharper.

A lot of folks, even one guy that frequents this forum, get lost in AFMA and frustrated and disappointed after they spend hours doing it and the lens still isn't any sharper. In fact you are adjusting the camera and not the lens.

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

ebiggs1 — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:44:55 GMT

"I Want to do a side by side comparison on different bodies first."

I made that my hobby right after I retired but I did it with lenses. I don't even know how many lenses I bought and sold over the last 15 years but it is in the many dozens.

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

CarlG — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:49:25 GMT

Yeah I know. I was just trying to get it as sharp as possible. I may send it to CS and let them look at it. It is an L lens it should be sharper. Or maybe I'm just a little bleep retentive about these things

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

CarlG — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 15:54:16 GMT

You know I didn't think about it in those terms. Very good point! I have an EF-S 10-18 that is incredible on my 80D I need to try it on the R. Thanks for making that point.

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

ebiggs1 — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:12:14 GMT

" I may send it to CS and let them look at it. It is an L lens it should be sharper."

OK you can send it in but if there is not any mechanical damage of miss-alignment the lens is still as sharp as it will ever be. Even Canon can not make it any sharper than it is. It is best to send the camera/lens combo in together.

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

CarlG — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 16:55:19 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
" I may send it to CS and let them look at it. It is an L lens it should be sharper."

OK you can send it in but if there is not any mechanical damage of miss-alignment the lens is still as sharp as it will ever be. Even Canon can not make it any sharper than it is. It is best to send the camera/lens combo in together.

With any number of my prime lenses I get tack sharp images even down to 200 300% mag with the EOS R. It is this one L 24-105 I seem to be having issues with. It's about a year old now. I think it is an alignment problem internally. I am overly protective of my glass it has never been banged around or dropped. All of my gear is transported in Pelican Cases when I travel. I am waiting for a 100-400 USM IS L II to arrive. We'll see how that is before I go sending this one off. I may be expecting too much from these lenses.

I really appreciate your input. Nice to get help from a pro.

thanks!

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

mindawoo — Fri, 25 Jan 2019 23:28:50 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
" So a 30mp camera effectively is now 11.6mp, much less than what I have with my current set up."

Actually you are only mathematically correct but not photographic. The pixel density is still exactly the same. The resulting photo will exhibit the same IQ.

If I am understanding you correctly then this would impact how large a print I can make without losing print quality? For example, according to this guide Megapixel Chart I should be able to print up to a 9 x 14 at 300 ppi as long as I didn't crop much. And, according to the comments, with some photoshop tricks and using slightly less ppi, I should be able to achieve even larger prints without sacrificing quality; how far I can push this is determined more by the quality of my sensor and lenses. What about the statement made in the comments regarding sensors; that, for example, a "larger 6MP sensor will of course produce better images than a smaller 6MP sensor of the same type." What does this mean exactly? That full frame sensors are better than crop?

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

RobertTheFat — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 13:29:03 GMT

@mindawoo wrote:
@ebiggs1 wrote:
" So a 30mp camera effectively is now 11.6mp, much less than what I have with my current set up."

Actually you are only mathematically correct but not photographic. The pixel density is still exactly the same. The resulting photo will exhibit the same IQ.
If I am understanding you correctly then this would impact how large a print I can make without losing print quality? For example, according to this guide Megapixel Chart I should be able to print up to a 9 x 14 at 300 ppi as long as I didn't crop much. And, according to the comments, with some photoshop tricks and using slightly less ppi, I should be able to achieve even larger prints without sacrificing quality; how far I can push this is determined more by the quality of my sensor and lenses. What about the statement made in the comments regarding sensors; that, for example, a "larger 6MP sensor will of course produce better images than a smaller 6MP sensor of the same type." What does this mean exactly? That full frame sensors are better than crop?

Yes. The larger the pixel, the more light it can collect, and the more accurate it can be about what photons it sees relative to its neighbors. And full-frame sensors, except in the highest resolution cameras, have larger pixels. Which represents an improvement in image quality. But the effect is greater on low-light performance than on resolution: 6 MP is still 6MP.

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

wq9nsc — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 14:46:17 GMT

Bob explained that well. For a given level of technology, the larger the individual sensor cells the better the low light performance. When low light performance goes down, in addition to noise you also run into the issue of color shift and loss of color vibrancy as processing compensates in an effort to reduce apparent noise. My 1DX 2 and 1DX perform well in low lighting sports situations but I would love to to experiment with how an 8 Mp version using the same sensor technology with resultant much larger sensor cells would perform.

I remember reading a funny article quite a few years ago about a professional photographer set up to take photos at a road rally and two amateur photographers were snickering about him using his then 4 year old original Canon 1D (with all of 4 megapixel resolution) while they had their much newer multi-megapixel consumer grade cameras. A pair of cars raced by and the pro captured several nice images while they had nothing but garbage.

The number of megapixels is an easy metric that the average consumer thinks he/she understands but it is only one part of the chain of characteristics leading to good image quality.

Rodger

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

CarlG — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 14:47:43 GMT

Essentially it's like this:

An APS C sensor is 24mmx16mm = 384 sqmm a 18mp sensor has 46,875 pixels per sqmm

A Full Frame Sensor is 36 x 24mm = 864 sq mm a 30mp sensor has 34,722.22 pixels per sqmm

That being said the full frame pixels are 1.3 times LARGER than than the APS C

What this means is the full frame sensor pixels are able to gather more light and image information than the APS C therefore leaving you with a somewhat higher quality image per pixel. very handy in low light.

That being said the high end EOS 1DX is a 20.2mp full frame sensor and that sensor has 23,379.629 pixels per sqmm. which means these are even larger (2 times an 18mp APS C) and therefore gather more light and more data quickly. This why you can get such high frame rates from EOS 1DX.

All of this being said there is no PERFECT camera for ALL instances and ALL budgets. 11.6mp is 11.6mp....however those pixels can vary in size and light gathering capabilities.

If I have made an error here someone please politely point it out. I hadnt thought about this in depth until ebiggs pointed it out to me....amd I thnk him for that. I hope this helps.

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

Waddizzle — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 15:55:26 GMT

@CarlG wrote:
Essentially it's like this:

An APS C sensor is 24mmx16mm = 384 sqmm a 18mp sensor has 46,875 pixels per sqmm

A Full Frame Sensor is 36 x 24mm = 864 sq mm a 30mp sensor has 34,722.22 pixels per sqmm

That being said the full frame pixels are 1.3 times LARGER than than the APS C

What this means is the full frame sensor pixels are able to gather more light and image information than the APS C therefore leaving you with a somewhat higher quality image per pixel. very handy in low light.

That being said the high end EOS 1DX is a 20.2mp full frame sensor and that sensor has 23,379.629 pixels per sqmm. which means these are even larger (2 times an 18mp APS C) and therefore gather more light and more data quickly. This why you can get such high frame rates from EOS 1DX.

All of this being said there is no PERFECT camera for ALL instances and ALL budgets. 11.6mp is 11.6mp....however those pixels can vary in size and light gathering capabilities.

If I have made an error here someone please politely point it out. I hadnt thought about this in depth until ebiggs pointed it out to me....amd I thnk him for that. I hope this helps.

Eh, I think you’re on the right track, but your math and conclusions are a little fuzzy. You are conflating pixel density with pixel size, which is incorrect. For example, the 6D uses very large pixels for 20MP resolution. The 6D2 has 26MP resolution on the same full frame sensor size, but the pixel size is just slightly smaller than those in the 6D.

The size of the individual pixels on different Canon sensors can be found in the specifications. In the case of the 6D2, engineers were apparently able to reduce the space between pixels. They were able to fit 30% more pixels within the same area.

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

ebiggs1 — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 16:47:15 GMT

"..."larger 6MP sensor will of course produce better images than a smaller 6MP sensor of the same type." "

Some how we got off of resolution and onto low light performance? I am going to stick to resolution for now but we can discuss low light if you want. First you can not just compare sensors without considering the whole camera. For instance any newer sensor is going to out perform most older sensors. Make sense, as they should as technology advances. A 6MP sensor made with 2019 tech should be better than a 2009 6MP sensor. The rest of the innards of the camera will also come into play. The sensor type is also a consideration, BSI (Back Side Illuminated) CMOS or CCD. An 18MP Rebel has pixels that are approx. 4.3 microns and my 18MP 1DX they are 6.9 microns. As you might conclude the Rebel is going to have higher IQ because the pixels are smaller and there is going to be more on subject. This starts another debate whether it is better to shoot with a crop sensor with smaller pixels and enlarge it to the same size as the FF or just use the FF in the first place.

The more pixels you put on a sensor, the smaller the pixel will be. Correct? An 18 megapixel sensor will have smaller pixels than a 12 megapixel sensor, assuming both sensors were exactly the same size. However there is nothing saying the pixels have to be crammed as tightly as possible, sometimes they are not but that is a general rule of thumb. The sensor type is also a consideration, BSI (Back Side Illuminated) CMOS or a CCD sensor.

General rule a smaller sensor is not going to be able to make as big of a print as an equivalent larger sensor when viewed at reasonable distances. The viewing distance must also be considered. And the most confusing part is DPI. Cameras and Photoshop do not have DPI. Only printers have DPI. Cameras always shoot at whatever resolution they were made with.

"All of this being said there is no PERFECT camera..." You are correct, sir!

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

CarlG — Sat, 26 Jan 2019 17:05:58 GMT

Yes I was trying to be too simplistic in my reply. Utilizing very basic APS C dimensions vs Full Frame and not from Canons specs. You are of course correct. Just imagine the sensor from the R in a 1DX mirrorless with dual Digic 8 processors! Fun times. I was though trying to be simple in an explanation 😂

Re: EOS R, EF-S Lens Crop Loss of Megapixels

hearkg — Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:22:13 GMT

Please create a firmware upgrade to allow us to use the whole sensor with ef-s lenses if any of the people at Canon Read this.

I know that the image circle of an ef-s lens can't cover the whole sensor. But wider lenses are capable of producing very good macro images when mounted backwords. I have a 100mm macro lens but I really want to use my old 18-55mm kit lens as a great macro lens because it produces larger magnification than the 1:1 100mm macro lens.
please allow us to use the whole sensor with ef-s lenses. 🙏🥺🙏🥺🙏

Make the firmware to change the mode to 1.6x crop whenever an ef-s lens is attached to the camera but let us change it back to full sensor mode in the menu, so the people who know about this will change intentionally and no one will complain about the huge vignette when mounted in the foward direction.
Please.......