topic Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right? in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

kneale — Sun, 13 May 2018 15:49:58 GMT

Hi all. I love nature and am tired of using only my iphone. I've had cameras in the past but it has been years. So long in fact, when I tried to hook my old Pentax DSLR up to my Macbook, it was incompatible, so no way to download my photos. So, now I am looking at Canon Rebels including the SL2, T7i and also the D77.

My goal, other than being able to take photos of my kids, is to shoot nature. I love to garden and we have many birds, bees and butterflies that come into the garden on a regular basis. I also have lots of flowers and want to capture them as well. My husband would like to use the camera for video capture of his Tankganyikan Cichlids (fish).

My dilemma is I've watched so many Youtube videos and it seems I "need" at least the Canon T7i or D77 to be able to even get a mediocre shot (according to all of the "experts"), and I honestly can't afford the price point of either of these with all the lenses. I can afford the D77 body only, which obviously does me no good. The T7i is slightly better but only with the 18-55 lens. I can just afford the SL2 with the kit 18-55 and the 55-250.

I'm at a loss. To hear most of the Youtubers anything less than at least one of these is a waste of money. No camera means no pictures but I am wondering if I should just hold off and save up for the better camera, the D77 or maybe even the D80. What are your thoughts and experiences?

Thank you!

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

shadowsports — Sun, 13 May 2018 18:26:02 GMT

Greetings,

Your lens choices are going to be a bigger influence on the IQ of your pictures than those body's.

Sure you get a little more by spending more, but the lens is what really counts in most cases.

If you are deciding between the T7i and 77D... tight budget, go with the T7i, unless you want the top body LCD.

If opting between the 77D and 80D, go 80D. While both have 45 point AF, the 80 has Cross Type AF which the 77 doesn't. This will come in handy for sports and wildlife, BIF, etc. The 80D also offer faster FPS, faster shutter speed, in body video stabillization and 100% pentaprism viewfinder.

I'd save a little and then consider bying on credit. Other possibility is buying refurbished from Canon. Don't be afraid to do this. Two of my Canon Lenses were refurbs. Both are excellent. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a refurb'ed body from Canon either.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

Wolfie0827 — Sun, 13 May 2018 18:13:51 GMT

Two things, first if your old pentax uses standard memory cards and the quality of the pictures were fine before then all you really need is a card reader for your mac. Just remove the memory card from the camera and place it in the card reader when you want to download the pictures.

Second, Don't give too much credit to the "experts" on youtube. Any mid-range DSLR camera from the past 5-8 years will work well (Of course the newer the better in most cases) with a good lense. Just be sure to get one fromone of the better manufacturers such as Canon, Nikon (Boo, hiss, hiss ... kidding), or Pentax etc..

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

kneale — Sun, 13 May 2018 18:31:45 GMT

Wolfie0827, which of the midrange do you suggest for capturing birds, butterflies, fish, family :), etc.?

Thanks!!

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

Wolfie0827 — Sun, 13 May 2018 18:48:30 GMT

I really can't give any other advice on cameras to use since I wasn't using any since like 2004 until just recently when I bought the Rebel T6i. It has worked very well for me so far (Just got it a little over a month ago.) My only complaint is the autofocus when shooting video, it is a little wonky, and tries to re-focus even when nothing has changed in the view area, and manual focusing while shooting video is not as easy as for stills.

But that being said the camera works very well, and as others have said refrubished directly from Canon has a very good reputation. I would say find the one you know you can afford (remembering to include accessories in the price you can afford) and get it, Just don't be affraid to check Amazon and the like for slightly older models that may work feature and price wise for you.

One last thing if you go for the T6 that I have, go for the T6i or the T6s, the extra features on these two over the base T6 are definitly worth the extra price. Or they are for me.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

Waddizzle — Sun, 13 May 2018 19:17:00 GMT

@kneale wrote:
Wolfie0827, which of the midrange do you suggest for capturing birds, butterflies, fish, family :), etc.?

Thanks!!

You want the T71, 77D, or the 80D. But, it is all about the lens you use. Your images will never be better than the lenses that you use. Any of the Canon EF-S “STM” lenses will give you great photos, and smooth video.

The 80D has the most bang or the buck, and is a really capable camera. It has near professional grade automatic focusing for tracking subjects like birds and butterflies. It also makes full use of the Dual Pixel AF sensor for smooth focusing when shooting video.

Check out Canon’s Online Refurbished Store. If something is out of stock today, wait for it to come back. Graduation season is just around the corner, so I suspect that many items may be back in stock, like the 80D and 18-66 STM lens. I have bought two of them as gifts for less than $850, which is a price that appears only once ever six months or so.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

RobertTheFat — Mon, 14 May 2018 11:08:32 GMT

@shadowsports wrote:
Greetings,
Your lens choices are going to be a bigger influence on the IQ of your pictures than those body's.

Sure you get a little more by spending more, but the lens is what really counts in most cases.
If you are deciding between the T7i and 77D... tight budget, go with the T7i, unless you want the top body LCD.

If opting between the 77D and 80D, go 80D. While both have 45 point AF, the 80 has Cross Type AF which the 77 doesn't. This will come in handy for sports and wildlife, BIF, etc. The 80D also offer faster FPS, faster shutter speed, in body video stabillization and 100% pentaprism viewfinder.

I'd save a little and then consider bying on credit. Other possibility is buying refurbished from Canon. Don't be afraid to do this. Two of my Canon Lenses were refurbs. Both are excellent. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a refurb'ed body from Canon either.

Buying Canon refurbs is a good idea; buying on credit isn't, unless you're a professional. Buy what you can afford. Photography can be a deep money sink, and it's easy to get in over your head.

A lot of what you hear about birding is based on the presumption that you're in the wild looking for birds that are trying to stay out of your way. That doesn't necessarily apply to the birds that hang out in your garden, which means that you can probably get by with lesser equipment (particularly shorter lenses), at least for now.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

shadowsports — Mon, 14 May 2018 14:22:24 GMT

My feeling. There is nothing wrong with buying on credit. This can put a product in your hands that some people cannot afford all at once. Amazon for example offers 6 months free financing for purchases over a certain amount. So you get the equipment you want, with a little bit down. Then 3-4 monthly payments and you have the gear you wanted at a manageable price point and no interest. I'm all for Canon's refurbs, but for some, coming up with all of the money up front is not possible.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

kneale — Mon, 14 May 2018 15:11:21 GMT

Thank you Bob and Rick. I think I'm narrowed down to the T7i or 80D. My reasons for the 77D were to get me used to the extra dials the 77D is said to have (I believe there are two the rebels don't have). My understanding is the D77 feels like some of the more professional models but others say it is just a rebel in disguise. Since I don't have anything at this point, a rebel in disguise would be a great thing. LOL. Also, at least two of the reviewers on Youtube mentioned the body can handle the larger lenses better thant the T7i. I've always enjoyed taking pictures and know I will turn this into a hobby so I'd like to be able to invest periodically in better lenses to advance my abilities. But, the T7i is almost the same camera and at a cheaper price point, so if I go that route I will get the T7i. I have yet to get up to NFM, which is where I will be buying, to try some of them in hand. That will make the difference I am sure.

I'm definitely not going to be buying a lot on credit. Right now I just want to purchase a basic kit and not going nuts on lenses at this point. But I do want the initial purchase to make sense for the future. For additional lenses, I will have to wait. I know I will most likely get at least one lens down the road that will handle birds in flight and at a distance. That is probably a year from now. Got to get used to using the basic camera and kit lenses first.

Karen

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

ebiggs1 — Mon, 14 May 2018 15:19:03 GMT

Karen,

Now for the fatcs! The truth of the matter is, there is a certain price point to enter this type of photography. If you truly want 'decent' results. You really can't do it without being at that certain level. Don't be tempted to buy any camera on Amazon. They are bad deals. Instead get it form a real deal camera retailer like B&H, Adorama, Roberts, etc or perhaps a local store. Maybe Best Buy. Just don't buy any of the Amazon like kits. They are junk.

The Rebel T7i will be fine. It is a very capable camera. Keep in mind it is the lens that makes the photo. Also avoid any of the all-in-one zoom lenses. The longer the zoom ratio the worse it is. The best choice for birding is one of the 150-600mm super zooms from Sigma or Tamron. It is a 'your choice' situation as they are nearly identical IQ wise. A new T7i is about $750 and one of the 150-600 zooms about a grand. So you are looking at $1700 to $1800 to start. However, you will need a shorter focal length lens for all the general stuff and the EF-S 18-55mm f/4-5.6 IS STM Lens is only $50 bucks more.

Now if you can find these in a refurb or a used condition you can cut that cost a bit. With what I have outlined you can produce some breath taking shots. Certainly not high end gear but very capable.

I would also add to this, get a good post editor and learn how to use it. They are mandatory not an option for the best results. This will start you on a life long hobby that is truly rewarding. Especially knowing you did the shots yourself.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

kneale — Mon, 14 May 2018 15:25:58 GMT

Thank you Ebiggs1! I will put that 150-600 super zoom on my list of must haves and get it next after the intial purchase of my camera. Looks like I need to have a garage sale so I can buy one sooner than later! 😄

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

kneale — Mon, 14 May 2018 15:27:34 GMT

Ebiggs1,

Do you have a suggestion for the post editor? I came across Lightroom....

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

ebiggs1 — Mon, 14 May 2018 15:38:44 GMT

Lightroom is one of the best. Only Photoshop is better. But, Karen, if you do buy a new T7i you will get Canon's own DPP4 for free. Great place to start. Not LR but still, again, a very capable editor. When you get into this you are going to want to shoot Raw format. Raw requires a conversion in order to actually see the photo. DPP4 and LR do a fantastic job of this virtually seamless on your part.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

ebiggs1 — Mon, 14 May 2018 15:46:03 GMT

Keep in mind, kido, you are going to want to go from this to that.

It is just the way it is!

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

kneale — Tue, 15 May 2018 03:28:12 GMT

Love the pics!! I hope to be able to take great bird (and other wildlife) pictures one day. Thank you so much for all the advice.

Karen

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

RobertTheFat — Tue, 15 May 2018 05:52:07 GMT

@ebiggs1 wrote:
Lightroom is one of the best. Only Photoshop is better. But, Karen, if you do buy a new T7i you will get Canon's own DPP4 for free. Great place to start. Not LR but still, again, a very capable editor. When you get into this you are going to want to shoot Raw format. Raw requires a conversion in order to actually see the photo. DPP4 and LR do a fantastic job of this virtually seamless on your part.

I think Ernie's advice (to try DPP 4 first) is sound. DPP has evolved a lot over the years and is now a very capable, though not blindingly fast, editor. And it's free with Canon equipment. Lightroom, which isn't free (indeed, you can't even buy it anymore: you have to rent it) is also a fine editor. But the main feature that sets it apart is its sophisticated cataloguing system; and unless you're a pro, you're unlikely to take enough pictures for that to be worth the price.

Photoshop is in a different class. There are things you can do in Photoshop that few, if any, other editors can do. But unless you're a high-end graphics designer (or possibly a forger), you may not ever use those capabilities. My feeling about Photoshop is that when you need it, you'll know.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

Waddizzle — Tue, 15 May 2018 07:40:37 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:
@shadowsports wrote:
Buying Canon refurbs is a good idea; buying on credit isn't, unless you're a professional. Buy what you can afford. Photography can be a deep money sink, and it's easy to get in over your head.

A lot of what you hear about birding is based on the presumption that you're in the wild looking for birds that are trying to stay out of your way. That doesn't necessarily apply to the birds that hang out in your garden, which means that you can probably get by with lesser equipment (particularly shorter lenses), at least for now.

I agree, with Bob. You can get by with a lesser lens. In fact, a lesser lens will probably do you some good. Using a super telephoto lens is a lot like looking at the world through a straw. The longer the focal length, the narrower your angle of view.

Telephoto lenses fall in the 100mm to 300mm range. Super telephoto lenses are 400mm, and up. Using a medium telephoto zoom lens, like the Canon EF-S 55-250mm STM lens will help you get your “sea legs” before using a big super telephoto lens.

Most people need a monopod, or tripod, to use a super telephoto lens effectively because they tend to be big and heavy. Using a telephoto lens without added support is fairly easy for most people.

As far as what lens to buy, of course, the best advice is to “buy it once, buy it right.” But, sometimes the big step up can do more harm than good. I suggest going with a telephoto lens with a maximum focal length of 300mm. Most birders in the woods like to use 400-600mm lenses. A 300mm lens is more than adequate for the backyard bird feeder.

Sigma and Tamron, which both make 150-600mm super telephoto lenses, have both recently released 100-400mm lenses, which have super telephoto focal lengths, but in a medium telephoto size package. I think these are great lenses for someone needing to learn how to use a super telephoto lens.

If you want to jump into the deep end, and go for a big 150-600 super telephoto lens, be prepared to spend a bit more on a decent monopod and tilt head. I use a Benro monopod with a Kirk monopod tilt head. I love the Kirk head, because it is very strong, and easily supports the weight of a five pound lens, and a three pound camera body, without flopping about. A ball head simply does not work as well for action photography as a tilt head, or a pan and tilt head.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

Waddizzle — Tue, 15 May 2018 07:56:20 GMT

Lightroom is one of the best. Only Photoshop is better. But, Karen, if you do buy a new T7i you will get Canon's own DPP4 for free. Great place to start. Not LR but still, again, a very capable editor. When you get into this you are going to want to shoot Raw format. Raw requires a conversion in order to actually see the photo. DPP4 and LR do a fantastic job of this virtually seamless on your part.

Lightroom is a great application. It is a digital darkroom, comparable Canon’s free DPP software. It is used to process RAW photos into JPEGs, similar to processing a film negative into a printed photo. You can make various adjustments to contrast, brightness, white balance, noise reduction, lens correction, and more.

Photoshop is a bit more complex, and bests suited to the more artistically inclined. Unlike Lightroom, you can edit the content of images. I use it primarily for image stacking of macro photos, and the occasional imagery sleight of hand.

Be aware that lens correction is one of the best reasons to use post editors. The Canon DPP application only corrects for Canon lenses. So, if you buy a third party lens, then you will not be able to apply lens correction with DPP, and most every super telephoto lens needs lens correction applied to their images.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

ebiggs1 — Tue, 15 May 2018 14:04:28 GMT

"My feeling about Photoshop is that when you need it, you'll know."

My feeling is people need Photoshop and 'don't' know it. It is laughable to think every time you use PS you need every percent of its power. It is a, the best, post editor that has the power. Not the best post editor that makes you use all its power all the time.

Re: Birding On a tight budget - should I buy less now or wait to buy right?

ebiggs1 — Tue, 15 May 2018 14:15:30 GMT

"I hope to be able to take great bird (and other wildlife) pictures one day."

You will. Try to keep clear of the ole inner web hype. Do common sense things, meaning think before you buy. But most of all learn. Shoot a lot and keep track of what works and what doesn't. Nobody starts at the top. And guess what, if you don't become the world's greatest photographer, the Sun will still rise in the East every morning. But you will have one of the most rewarding hobbies there is. There are worse things you could have taken up. It could have been golf !