topic Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets in EOS DSLR & Mirrorless Cameras

5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

eagoergens — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:31:38 GMT

I have been shooting indoor high school swim meets for 6-ish years with a 70-200 f:/2.8L IS on a 7d (using AI Servo). The 7D has provided very good hit rates, with two exception; low-light capability, and sometimes focusing on water splashes in front of the swimmer's face.

I recently (two days ago) acquired a 5dMkIV and decided to get serious about understanding AF.

1. After reading the first 160 pages of the manual, it appears my best bet for swimming is AI Servo, Case 2?

2. I can't decide which AF Area to use. I always used Single Point, but after reading the manual, am undecided. Everything from Zone, Large Zone to Automatic look like good possibilities.

3. Then I read about iTR with Face Priority and they all look even better.

Does anyone have significant experience with using the MkIV for swim meets and an opinion? Thanks!

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

Waddizzle — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 18:56:06 GMT

Canon has published lengthy “Auto Focus Guides” that explain the entire AF system, including Case settings. Maybe someone can post a link to one. Case Settings are really nothing more than a Preset for a few AF sensitivity settings.

No one can tell you what settings to use. Most of the final result is up to your skill with the camera and lens. The case settings make the assumption that you have multiple AF points enabled, as well as AF Assist points. Using just the center AF point defeats the purpose of most of the AF sensitivity settings.

One setting that I do recommend changing from the factory default for action photography is 1st Image Priority and 2nd Image Priority. I would advise setting these to full Focus Priority.

If the camera is focusing on water splashes between you and the swimmer, then the camera is simply doing what it knows best, which is focus on the nearest subject to the camera under the active AF point. With just the center AF point active, then it will focus on whatever is covered by the center AF point.

Activating multiple AF points, say the center zone, allows the camera to detect a moving subject. In this case, “moving subject” usually means a subject whose distance to the camera is changing. When you are panning, it can take on a different meaning because of the Case Settings.

I do not advise tracking faces of swimmers because it may only confuse the camera. But, I think the camera can track a colored object, just like it would a face, without you doing much of anything, except activating AF Assist Points.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

Waddizzle — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 19:12:17 GMT

Here is the link to the 7D Mark II, which is similar to the 5D Mark IV.

http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2014/eos7dmk2_afGuidebook.shtml

But, the 5D Mark IV has an AF system that is more similar to the 1Dx Mark II, with all of the f/8 AF points.

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2016/eos1dx_mkii/eos1dx_markii_f8_af.shtml

Hope this helps.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

eagoergens — Fri, 28 Sep 2018 19:47:18 GMT

Thank you Waddizzle! I will try a couple settings tonight (I'm on my way to a meet) and let you know what works best for me.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

eagoergens — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 01:47:41 GMT

Venue had really crappy lighting. ISO to 6400 to get 1/200 or 1/320.

I started with Automatic selection AF and initial focusing was way too slow and my hit rate was << 70%. I changed to AF Point Expansion (9 points), which was much faster, but my hit rate was still around 80%. Images that were in focus looked great, with minimal noise and nice detail. Color saturation was a little light, but I'm used to the settings on my 7D, where I bumped up contrast and saturation a notch. I had already set 1st and 2nd Image Priority to Full Focus.

I will try out single point tomorrow at practice, but that will probably just get me more water drops. There will be tons of lights and natural light, so I will revit the others, too.

Lots to learn and much playing to do. I will be studying the manual and the AF Guides.

Thanks Again!

Mark

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

ebiggs1 — Sat, 29 Sep 2018 21:21:47 GMT

Swimmers are relatively slow moving. I would use a single center focus point and put it exactly where I want it. I also would use One shot, not Ai-servo. I don't think this calls for extraordinary focus methods so simple is better. Sometimes it is better to not over think things.

I would like to know if the face recognition works in this case. Sounds intriguing.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

Bartee — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 18:44:45 GMT

Did you try iTR ?? I am a new buyer and really trying to find out how iTR works.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

eagoergens — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 18:58:29 GMT

I had iTR on, but did not notice any benefit. Likely is was because of my lack of knowledge and not enough shots to get familiar with it.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

wq9nsc — Mon, 08 Oct 2018 19:33:47 GMT

iTR only functions if you are allowing AF to use at least zone AF and preferably most or all of the available AF points. In the majority of my shooting situations it isn't of much use because most of the time I have a long telephoto lens in place and I am primarily shooting with a single point with 4 point expansiion and iTR isn't operative under those conditions.

When I first got the 1DX 2, I was trying out some of the features at a soccer match and with a wide angle lens it was interesting to watch it track an individual within the camera's field of view and it did that well but most of the time I am already focusing upon a single individual or a pair of players and not using the full range of available AF points. The Canon AF system has a lot of features and the ones I have tried work well BUT if your shooting situation isn't appropriate (or doesn't play to the strong points of that feature) then it will be of limited use. It does allow your camera to "stalk" people in a group setting 🙂

Rodger

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

blanca12 — Thu, 18 Oct 2018 16:00:57 GMT

Motorsports, if your vantage point is above the track level, is one of the more easy sporting events to track. If you are closer to ground level, as vehicles move past barriers, trees, people, vehicles bunched up in the turns, etc, the AF system can be taxed a bit more, but for the most part, you have large isolated objects that you would pan with in a predictable path, and then shoot. The results become more indicative of the photographer's skill in keeping the AF point on the vehicle in question, probably more than the AF system itself. (removed link per forum guidelines)

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

CapeCodDan — Sat, 29 Dec 2018 14:09:13 GMT

Shooting first meet of the season yesterday, 6DMkII often got the water splashes in front of the backstroking or freestyling swimmers sharp. I was using AI Servo w center spot AF, 70-200, AV. This (cropped) image is ISO 8000, 1/1000 at f3.5. Reading this post, I guess... it's gonna happen sometimes...no magic wand for this?

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

ebiggs1 — Sat, 29 Dec 2018 15:47:03 GMT

Nice shot,very nice!

"This (cropped) image is ISO 8000, 1/1000 at f3.5."

I wonder if ISO 8000, 1/500 and f5.6 would have increased the DOF a bit? But it is a cool shot as is. Good job.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

Waddizzle — Sat, 29 Dec 2018 17:26:36 GMT

@CapeCodDan wrote:
Shooting first meet of the season yesterday, 6DMkII often got the water splashes in front of the backstroking or freestyling swimmers sharp. I was using AI Servo w center spot AF, 70-200, AV. This (cropped) image is ISO 8000, 1/1000 at f3.5. Reading this post, I guess... it's gonna happen sometimes...no magic wand for this?

Nice shot. This shows you what the camera is capable of doing. But I think you may need to adjust your AF settings, too.

There are no magic wands for this. It takes familiarity with the features of the camera, and some practice. I agree with using AI Servo. Does that mean you used also Continuous Drive shooting mode? I agree with using the center AF point. Does that mean you did NOT have any AF Assist points active?

The AF tracking system used in the 6D2 is nearly identical to that in the 7D2. The primary difference is that the 7D2 can store six “Case Settings”, which are nothing more than presets for a few of the most critical AF settings that influence tracking behavior. The AF settings allow you to set the camera to briefly ignore something that comes between your subject and the camera. It will automatically pause tracking for a beat.

But, those AF tracking settings do not come into play until you activate some AF Assist points. Using just the center AF point only allows for focus tracking. It does not allow for tracking of moving subjects. You need to learn how to activate AF tracking. to activate AF tracking of a subject, then you need to use more than just the center AF point. This was pointed out by someone in an earlier post on this thread regarding iTR facial tracking.

Your sample photo is a textbook example of the scenario that I described in my first post in this thread. The camera is focusing on whatever is under the active AF point. This behavior can be used to your advantage when tracking birds in flight, because more times than not, the closest subject under your active AF point is the BIF.

But, you have objects coming between your subject and the camera. You need to track a subject, which the camera can do very well. I suggest activating the Center Zone of AF points to be used as AF Assist points, but keep the center AF point as your manually selected starting point for AF tracking. You may also want to activate the AF points display, so that you can watch the AF tracking in real time.

If you are not using Continuous Drive shooting mode, then I suggest that you do. Not every captured frame will be a keeper. But, if you had it going when you took your sample photo, then a later shot in the sequence would have been what you are looking for, a shot of the swimmer without water blocking the view and confusing the AF system.

As you experiment with AF settings, save them in a custom shooting mode. When I am shooting action photography, I am using a custom shooting mode that I created. I advise disabling the automatic update feature of a custom shooting mode, so that you do not lose what your settings when you are not shooting swimmers.

If I want to do landscape photography, I can switch to M, and have One Shot AF mode and Single Shot drive mode. If I want to shoot a bird in a tree, hidden among the branches, I switch to C1 custom shooting mode, which activates BBF with One Shot AF and Single Shot drive. I use C2 to activate all AF points and Continuous drive mode for action photography. This is what works for me. You may want to use custom shooting modes differently, or even not at all.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

RobertTheFat — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 02:21:34 GMT

I suppose it's a matter of what you're after. Artistically, one could argue that having the splashes in focus may be preferable to having the swimmer herself in focus, especially when (as in this case) the foam tends to obscure the swimmer anyway. But I can well understand that as a sports or event photographer, you may not see it exactly that way.

I'm a little puzzled by the magenta blotches in the left half of the frame. Are they genuine reflections or some sort of artifact? My experience is that that color doesn't appear in nature very often.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

Waddizzle — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 03:13:03 GMT

@RobertTheFat wrote:

I'm a little puzzled by the magenta blotches in the left half of the frame. Are they genuine reflections or some sort of artifact? My experience is that that color doesn't appear in nature very often.

It looks more red than magenta on my screens. I never gave it a second thought. It could be a scoreboard.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

CapeCodDan — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 14:42:27 GMT

Yeah, red scoreboard lights reflecting in the water!

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

ebiggs1 — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 15:17:12 GMT

"...red scoreboard lights reflecting in the water!"

No problem for Photoshop. What post editor do you use, BTW?

What I was referring to was a possible deeper DOF would have sharpened up the face a bit.

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

CapeCodDan — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 15:29:06 GMT

@Waddizzle, thanks for the very thorough response! Yes I use high-speed continuous drive mode.

Swimming is a bit of a focusing challenge because you can’t continuously track the athlete moving toward you (as in basketball, soccer, football, etc) - because they are disappearing into the water, in fact there’s only brief moments when their heads are out of the water. I still used AI Servo figuring I could get two or three frames in each burst and keep them sharp. I chose single-point AF figuring I can always keep their faces centered under the focus point, with the system (hopefully) disregarding the splashing water surrounding. I frame a bit loosely to, again, be able to later crop for good composition even though the face is in the center of the frame.

I do have my C.Fn II-1 moved to “locked on: -1” to better stay focused on the subject. I also have C.Fn II-5 moved to “shooting speed priority”.

I’m a bit confused about your use of “AF Assist” since that term is used in the manual only in reference to speedlites. What I think you’re suggesting is to use zone AF instead of single-point AF, as that will better track the athlete as he/she moves?

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

CapeCodDan — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 15:35:48 GMT

I use Photoshop CC. Certainly DOF with 5.6 or smaller might have gotten the face better, but at the expense of movement which could have blurred the face right back! Not a huge deal with someone moving toward or away from you, but a big deal with subject moving across the frame of course. I'm depending on the camera getting the face sharp. I seem to recall a time when I had to manually focus every shot...😝

Re: 5DMkIV AF Settings for Swim Meets

ebiggs1 — Sun, 30 Dec 2018 16:23:47 GMT

Dan,

Try bracketing. You might get the best of the best with it. Your Mk IV does it almost effortlessly.

Sometimes folks go gonzo on the AF mode when just the very simplest one will work. One shot and center focus point is most likely the best.